Remove gallery scoring system

Talion

New member
Got to be honest I stopped posting minis on the site because they got lower scores than I thought the deserved when looking at others with same scores.

I agree with getting rid of the scores and having the "like" "dislike" thumbs, at least you then get an idea of how many people like your mini, and have voters leave a mandatory comment with each action. May get less people voting but only dedicated people will vote.
 

yxalitis

New member
I'm going to presume that you haven't looked back and read through all the previous threads on the subject of voting. They, er, go back a bit. I'd strongly recommend you do that; it'll take you a couple of hours.
The number of posts on the topic suggest it IS an issue.
If the scores were taken away the efforts of thousands of people going back 10 years would be invalidated. That would be one thing if the site were going away taking the scores with it, it's quite another for an on-going entity. Surely you realise the site was built upon the post-for-votes system, it didn't come after?
I never said remove the old scores, leave them. Just remove future scores.

Duude, seriously you didn't just ask that question did you?

Did you miss the point above that even amongst experienced judges opinions can vary, and wildly? Does that mean there's no point in them judging either?
How does that in -any way- invalidate my point?
If I take my model to a convention, that's my choice. When it gets judged by a handful a 'professional' judging panel, I see only one score, determined by a discussion those judges made, or based on some statistical means to eliminate the aberrant score (as in remove the lowest and the highest, and average the rest). And whilst judges do disagree, I will have it assumed that they often are in close agreement, and only occasionally have a difference of more then a point or two.

While that is true it is not a legitimate argument in support of your premise. Besides, you want to suggest how you can force more participation?

An uncomfortable truth has been pointed out before: us, all of us who post in the forums, we're the minority of the people who use the site. The regular posters (which doesn't include you) are an even tinier fraction.
If the only comments come from the "committed few" who care and know about minis, than THOSE comments are worthy, regardless of number. You seem to think I'm suggesting replacing a number voting system with a comment voting system...I'm not. It isn;t the number of comments that matter.
:dazed: Even fewer people comments, so by your logic there's more reason to scrap that facility!

Come on dude, think things through if you're going to post something like this.
As stated before a comment or two outweigh a dozen 6's or 7's with NO comment.
It is not the number of comments, but their content that determines their value.
 

Cedric

New member
The only real problem I have with the system is that people try to sell based on this score as a means of quality. Well, this is a false use of this score because all votes are based on the PICTURE and what the photo tells them about the painter. This can and is misleading
For atleast three reasons.
1. Not everyone has a professional camera or lighting rig to take the quality shot.
2. Some use Photo Shop to "ENHANCE"
3. To truly score a miniature, it must be seen first hand.
example: I've seen photos of someones miniature and they looked like 7 to 7.5 by this sites score. Then I saw it first hand - mold lines everywhere. painting was still good but the mold lines destroyed my opinion.

Your score is only a direct reflection of the quality of the photo
So keep the system or alter it, but fair it will never be. Separating votes by supporters might help those who are true hobbyists. I do like the idea of a required comment to vote as this site is more about the painter than player. Again someone can develop an enemy (paying, registered or guest) and get tainted scores.
It might even gain additional supporters as you could hide the score of paying supports, from the general users.

The Scores truly do not matter.
The Comments truly do not matter.
 

yxalitis

New member
Good point, the best mini in the world won't get a decent score unless it is also photographed well.
I have in my collection, a Rackham Titan Dragon. I painted him purple. Whenever I take a photo of him with my SLR camera, under normal light, bright sunlight, overcast sky, or twin halogen lights mounted on a tripod, the purple is always greatly amplified., from purple, to PURPLE!!! Yet, the blended colours don't get this same effect, result: not only does it look garish, the blended colours now..aren't blended, they pop out weirdly.
So I can't put him up online at all, until I can get a decent set of photos.
I'm not a photographer. I'm a painter.
 

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
I don't understand the argument. What is the point at all of posting your miniature online then if it is impossible to judge?

@Cedric:
1) You do not need a professional lighting equipment or camera. The photos I have in my gallery are mainly made with an old compact and one fluorescent light
2) Please do tell who! I've seldom seen photoshopped work on this site or anywhere else. If you happen to see something suspicious please report it to us mods.
3) Sure. But I have visited many shows as well as judged some local ones as well as having a collection of miniatures from some of the best painters in the world. There are so many factors
that have an effect in real life as well! Not the least lighting.

If you're after absolute objectivity you are not mistaken, but to say that scores and comments are useless is absurd. It's just not the same thing to see that something is flawed and to say that it is without value.
 

yxalitis

New member
I don't understand the argument. What is the point at all of posting your miniature online then if it is impossible to judge?

@Cedric:
1) You do not need a professional lighting equipment or camera. The photos I have in my gallery are mainly made with an old compact and one fluorescent light
2) Please do tell who! I've seldom seen photoshopped work on this site or anywhere else. If you happen to see something suspicious please report it to us mods.
3) Sure. But I have visited many shows as well as judged some local ones as well as having a collection of miniatures from some of the best painters in the world. There are so many factors
that have an effect in real life as well! Not the least lighting.

If you're after absolute objectivity you are not mistaken, but to say that scores and comments are useless is absurd. It's just not the same thing to see that something is flawed and to say that it is without value.
1. If you took this photo, as presented here, with one fluro and a compact camera...please share your secret with the world!
http://www.coolminiornot.com/236665?browseid=961426
2. Photoshop will be used to adjust lighting, saturation, colour, gamet, midtones, etc, this is inevitable, it is not possible to detect this if done subtley, even an unnoticed smudge can be whisked away in a heart beat before uploading
If you do not think this happens with a large number of submissions, you are living in a fantasy land. It is also used to add in a nicely graduated background, like, well, YOUR submissions.
3. But you can't deny having the mini there in front of you is much better for judging, for a start, you see all the mini, not just the best bits highlighted by carefully selected photo choices.

As for scrapping it...then consider another system:
One that reduces the range perhaps, to only 1 - 5, rounded up.
One that forces a comment of more then a few words.
One that counts thumbs up, and thumbs downs, and maybe "meh" sideways thumbs.

What is the point at all of posting your miniature online then if it is impossible to judge?

Many, many, many sites get by quite nicely without a judging system, people post to share their work, to gather helpful tips for improvement, and to join in and share in a supportive community.
But here, all you get most of the time is a flat, lifeless score. The very best will shrug off an aberrant low score, but it is the impressionable newbie who I feel for.
A score allows people to be post a truly low score, that if they were forced to spell out in words, they might find hard to justify.
"I don't like the colours" is not reason to score a well painted mini low, nor is "I don't like that mini, I prefer the Forgeworld variant" and yet tell me this does not happen.

Answer me this: Is the scoring a true and correct measure of a minis worth?
If the answer is Yes, great, sorry to trouble you all.
If the answer is No, then, why bother?
I don't understand the argument.
Let me put it this way, what gain is there to score minis, if the scoring is by all accounts at best flawed, and what gain is there to encourage early starters with helpful comments instead.
What worth is it to stroke the ego of those who can both paint AND photograph a model well, if you discourage starters burned by a low score, a low score, by the way, often left without comment.
 

dogfacedboy uk1

New member
Does it do any harm to leave it in? Some people enjoy it, it encourages people to post and aids in pushing themselves a little bit harder. I agree more comments need to be made, but you cant force people to do so. Not every mini can be commented on and it would take a lot of time investment. Some minis encourage a comment, others do not. I always comment on a painter with a low skill level if I can offer some useful advice or if the mini interests me in some other way. People have even PM'ed me to thank me for it. That fact certainly does show evidence that the system is not fair, but removing it will achieve nothing as it does no harm either. I dont have a high enough skill level to comment critically on all the awesome stuff so I just say what I like best about it. The forums are the best place for those seriously looking to improve and I always encourage people to come over when I can.

The solution is quite simply to leave the system be but for people to comment more, encourage more forum participation in the comments (I have noticed many more users posting in the forums of late which is always a good thing) and realise the scores are not that important and serve only as a rough guide.
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you do not think this happens with a large number of submissions, you are living in a fantasy land. It is also used to add in a nicely graduated background, like, well, YOUR submissions..
Yxalitis: I'm not going to get drawn into this argument about scoring or comments......BUT the comment you've made here is close to being insulting.
IF you'd bother to look closely at Sven's posted pictures you'd see quite clearly that there are shadows cast on the background on a lot of them as well as edge shadows around the bottoms of the bases.
I also have a figure in my posession which Sven achieved a Golden Deamon UK Finalist award.....NOTHING faked on that one.

Your inference that Sven is faking the quality of his work, Not Cool Sunshine, Not Cool At All.


If you want to know how to take reasonable Photos with one lamp why not read the articles section.
In fact why not start with this one: http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1060-photographing-minis-with-just-one-lamp
 

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
1. If you took this photo, as presented here, with one fluro and a compact camera...please share your secret with the world!
http://www.coolminiornot.com/236665?browseid=961426

I've done so on many occasions, it's not a secret (scroll down). There is even an article in the articles section describing pretty much the same technique as Mike points out. That picture right there is taken with an old Sony P100 from 2004 and one fluorescent light.

2. Photoshop will be used to adjust lighting, saturation, colour, gamet, midtones, etc, this is inevitable, it is not possible to detect this if done subtley, even an unnoticed smudge can be whisked away in a heart beat before uploading
If you do not think this happens with a large number of submissions, you are living in a fantasy land. It is also used to add in a nicely graduated background, like, well, YOUR submissions.

Yes of course as most decent digital images (unless you have very good jpg settings) uploaded it takes some work to get the image to look like the miniature, fix colours and contrast etc. That is not what anyone mean by "photoshopping" who's in the ballgame. Again point me towards the examples of truly "cheating", you're just guessing, and what looks like it not from a very educated viewpoint either. Out of all my submissions there are I think two miniatures that have photoshopped backgrounds, the rest of them are gradients printed with my printer. If you cannot tell that, perhaps that undermines your argument of the existence of a legion of cheaters?

I'm going to give you an example. Some people claimed that a well known painter photoshopped their work. The reason was that when viewed at the golden deamon the minis seemed flat and lack contrast. I have one of the painters miniatures in my collection and the painter does not photoshop their work, it's just very subtle. The lighting on the GD's just blew all the highlights and shadows away. Looked close under good lighting the painters work is very sublime.

People claim a lot of things, that they saw this and that and that it was obviously photoshopped, conspiracy this, conspiracy that bla bla... but it's mainly just talk.


3. But you can't deny having the mini there in front of you is much better for judging, for a start, you see all the mini, not just the best bits highlighted by carefully selected photo choices.

Yes you have the potential of seeing more flaws in the case that the pictures are unrevealing and the lighting that you view the miniature under is revealing, but what's the point? We don't scrap telephones because it's better to talk face to face with people.

As for scrapping it...then consider another system:
One that reduces the range perhaps, to only 1 - 5, rounded up.
One that forces a comment of more then a few words.
One that counts thumbs up, and thumbs downs, and maybe "meh" sideways thumbs.

In what way would that help? I would go the other way in that case, with .5's so it would be easier to make a call between say a 7 and 8. But there are issues with that as well.


Many, many, many sites get by quite nicely without a judging system, people post to share their work, to gather helpful tips for improvement, and to join in and share in a supportive community.
But here, all you get most of the time is a flat, lifeless score. The very best will shrug off an aberrant low score, but it is the impressionable newbie who I feel for.
A score allows people to be post a truly low score, that if they were forced to spell out in words, they might find hard to justify.
"I don't like the colours" is not reason to score a well painted mini low, nor is "I don't like that mini, I prefer the Forgeworld variant" and yet tell me this does not happen.

Yes there are other sites! There are no reason for you or anyone else to post their work here if you do not feel like it! :) But I think the mini community would be poorer without coolminiornot controversies and all

Answer me this: Is the scoring a true and correct measure of a minis worth?
If the answer is Yes, great, sorry to trouble you all.
If the answer is No, then, why bother?

You seem to be missing the point here which is a bit frustrating. Just because something is not the objective truth does not mean it's without value. Think this one through now. Yes there are flaws with the voting system but there are always flaws with every kind of judging system, objectivity is just one aspect of it. Is it a few selected that judge? Are there mass-judging where everyone can cast a vote? Is the judging linked to a competition which a comapny holds? How long have the judges to judge the miniature? What lighting do they judge under? etc. etc. This system have a lot advantages too because it's not in real life, that it is on the Internet. I don't take it too seriously but I don't think it is without value either. It gives you an idea, just like any other system or competition. It complements rather then replaces feedback you get from people in real life. I mean it's not uncommon for people coming here, won one or two store competitions, thinking they're pretty much up there with the best when it's plain obvious that they are not...

Let me put it this way, what gain is there to score minis, if the scoring is by all accounts at best flawed, and what gain is there to encourage early starters with helpful comments instead.
What worth is it to stroke the ego of those who can both paint AND photograph a model well, if you discourage starters burned by a low score, a low score, by the way, often left without comment.

This point I do understand, what I would suggest rather then removing scores is then to have an option to not be a part of the scoring when you post. That I think would cater to everyone.

Continuing...
 

kathrynloch

New member
Yxalitis: I'm not going to get drawn into this argument about scoring or comments......BUT the comment you've made here is close to being insulting.
IF you'd bother to look closely at Sven's posted pictures you'd see quite clearly that there are shadows cast on the background on a lot of them as well as edge shadows around the bottoms of the bases.
I also have a figure in my posession which Sven achieved a Golden Deamon UK Finalist award.....NOTHING faked on that one.

Your inference that Sven is faking the quality of his work, Not Cool Sunshine, Not Cool At All.


If you want to know how to take reasonable Photos with one lamp why not read the articles section.
In fact why not start with this one: http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1060-photographing-minis-with-just-one-lamp

QFT! I agree 100%, Mike. This is getting nuts and beginning to sound like someone is arguing just for argument's sake.

1. If you took this photo, as presented here, with one fluro and a compact camera...please share your secret with the world!
http://www.coolminiornot.com/236665?browseid=961426
2. Photoshop will be used to adjust lighting, saturation, colour, gamet, midtones, etc, this is inevitable, it is not possible to detect this if done subtley, even an unnoticed smudge can be whisked away in a heart beat before uploading
If you do not think this happens with a large number of submissions, you are living in a fantasy land. It is also used to add in a nicely graduated background, like, well, YOUR submissions.

Oh great, so next you can't crop a photo or reduce the size or the kb in order to upload it?

But here, all you get most of the time is a flat, lifeless score. The very best will shrug off an aberrant low score, but it is the impressionable newbie who I feel for.

We were all newbies once. I'm sure plenty of people started out not being able to take a photo to save their lives. But I also see plenty of folks who did not run away with their tails between their legs. They are still here and help make this a vibrant community.


Let me put it this way, what gain is there to score minis, if the scoring is by all accounts at best flawed, and what gain is there to encourage early starters with helpful comments instead.

I hate to break this to you but all scoring systems are going to be "at best flawed". There is no perfect system out there because you're dealing with...oh hey, this may come as a surprise...human beings. :silly:

What worth is it to stroke the ego of those who can both paint AND photograph a model well, if you discourage starters burned by a low score, a low score, by the way, often left without comment.

Stroke the ego? Seriously??? I've busted my butt to improve my photography, and my pictures still have a long way to go, BUT they are a huge improvement over what I used to take. And it's all because of THIS SITE. I take a bunch of pics and work hard, I drive my friends nuts posting them to my threads asking them for their help and advice. But you know what? They give it each and every time and each and every time I tuck that bit of knowledge away for the future and my photos improve. My painting has also improved thanks to them.

But you can't make friends and learn if you sit around and wait for it to fall in your lap. Sure it's very nice when someone does comment on a photo, especially when they give sound advice, someone took the time out of their day to go the extra mile. But there are also comments that flamed and the people making them were being total jerkwads.

You can't protect newbies from every little thing and getting their feelings hurt. They have to learn how to handle good, bad and no criticism as part of their growth as an artist and a human being. Newbies arrive on the forums all the time with a bucket-load of paint and hundreds of dollars in miniatures and they want to know how to paint the next Golden Demon. They are treated very well, encouraged, critiqued kindly but the next thing you know they've vanished and the barely used paints and a ton of unpainted minis show up on ebay. For those who come to the forums to get advice, that's like your "comments" on steroids but it still doesn't work, it too is a flawed system because people are flawed.

But there are a few newbs who hang in there and when the wheat is separated from the chaff they remain, they continue to work and continue to improve. And the next thing you know, they are posting top quality minis.

CMON is still here because of that reason, the flawed system works and it works well enough to keep this site running for 10 years.

Last but not least, I have to admit that I am absolutely furious that you insulted one of the finest artists around and a good person. When I look at that photo you linked, I don't see photoshop tweaks trying to make the work something its not, I see someone who has put in hours upon hours of blood, sweat and tears and who is now reaping the rewards for all of that hard work and rightly so!
 

10 ball

New member
Your inference that Sven is faking the quality of his work, Not Cool Sunshine, Not Cool At All

Well said
 
Last edited:

yxalitis

New member
Your inference that Sven is faking the quality of his work, Not Cool Sunshine, Not Cool At All

Well said

Oh come off it, I was not suggesting THAT work was faked, at all, I said if this [example] photo was taken with one light and a camera, please let me know how.
I THEN continued in a second point about Photoshop, NOT implying that THAT PARTICULAR photo was faked.
I finally mentioned that you can add a graduated background in photoshop, as could be seen in that photo, so sorry if you thought I was inferring other photoshop techniques were applied to THAT photo. I also don't consider changing light conditions and adding a nice background in post production to be "cheating." Only removing painting flaws crosses that line, and there really is now way to see that in a submission, so of course I would not be accusing anyone directly of that.

But enough, I can see this is pointless, you all miss the point about turning away potential young painters, which is the only issue I have.
If you can't see that is a negative, then fine.

Cool mini or not. by the way, would suggest a score of Cool (thumbs up) or not (thumbs down).
 

yxalitis

New member
Your inference that Sven is faking the quality of his work, Not Cool Sunshine, Not Cool At All.
I was not suggesting THAT work was faked, at all, I said if this [example] photo was taken with one light and a camera, please let me know how.
I THEN continued in a second point about Photoshop, NOT implying that THAT PARTICULAR photo was faked.
I finally mentioned that you can add a graduated background in photoshop, as could be seen in that photo, so sorry if you thought I was inferring other photoshop techniques were applied to THAT photo. I also don't consider changing light conditions and adding a nice background in post production to be "cheating." Only removing painting flaws crosses that line, and there really is now way to see that in a submission, so of course I would not be accusing anyone directly of that.
If you want to know how to take reasonable Photos with one lamp why not read the articles section.
In fact why not start with this one: http://www.coolminiornot.com/articles/1060-photographing-minis-with-just-one-lamp

Thanks, that's an excellent article.
 

freakinacage

Well-known member
Many, many, many sites get by quite nicely without a judging system, people post to share their work, to gather helpful tips for improvement, and to join in and share in a supportive community.
But here, all you get most of the time is a flat, lifeless score. The very best will shrug off an aberrant low score, but it is the impressionable newbie who I feel for.

But if you are that worried, don't post it in the gallery, upload to photobucket and just post in the discuss submissions forums. If you don't have thick skin, don't bother

As for other sites not having the scoring system, use them. This one does. It's how it started. Than it became so much more!! bwhahaha. I don't remember the last mini I actually uploaded to the site tbh
 

cassar

BALLSCRATCHER
yxalitis i get what you're saying to get a low score is a kick in the stones to a beginner the same as getting no score or comment, we have all been there i think its true to say. The thing is some kind of scoring system can be useful too, the flaw in this particular system is that its art and individuals perception of that art that the system is trying to quantify and thats just not possible 2 and 2 dont always make 4 here. I think the trick is to not take the votes or comments to heart even though i've done exactly that myself in the past and always regreted it later. To try and come up with the perfect system will drive you nuts, they couldnt even do that in the Matrix lol.
Its not perfect but its as good as it gets without of course wiping out humanity save for twenty breeding pairs and starting over ;) .
 

10 ball

New member
This reminds me of my niece when she started a new junior school. I went to see her on sports day. They all lined up to do the 100m sprint, bang went the gun, we all cheered and then ..............

when the first person got to the finish line they stopped and waited for the others and they all crossed the line together!?! WTF!!!!

I agree with it would be nice to have comments with the score, but to get rid of the scoring system altogether I don't.
 

AndyG

Active member
What they were allowed to run????? What if they had fallen over dear god the h&s would have been all over them before you could say litigation! Next thing you know they will be allowing them to play games like football and conkers!!!!! Obviously this school is run by incompetent buffoons who are not on message! ;)
 

AllTerrainMonkey

New member
I just wanted to tack on a quick anecdote from personal experience; I made an online submission gallery for a miniatures manufacturer for anyone and everyone to submit to (well, of just minis that company made, of course), and the only voting standard was a thumbs up. If people thought the piece was spiffy they'd click a thumbs up, and that's it. No downvotes, no scores, no nothing. If people wanted they could look at various time spans to see what minis had been thumb'd, and the entries would show how many thumbs it had, but that's all.

After we rolled it live and posted about it in the forums for that company, it only took a few hours for someone to say (paraphrased), "Oh, I'll never submit anything to that system, it seems so judgmental and prone to favoritism." If there's any kind of judging, at all, there will be people who will be scared away by it. There are also people who will ragequit if something they made didn't score as highly as they thought it should. I've seen people go to painting competitions with minis that didn't even have all the primer covered up wondering why they didn't place as highly as a Reimer or a Haley. If your only real worry is turning away young painters, there's practically nothing you can do that'll stop someone who is predisposed to taking criticism personally from walking away.

So, why not try to brainstorm something to help along budding painters? Make a website for targeted feedback and guidance, and recruit helpful painters to contribute to it. Start a thread on various sites along the lines of "New Painters looking for input? Post here!" I have to admit, looking through all your posts on this page, your target of attack seems pretty rambling and rantish; if helping out new painters is your goal, toss the rest aside and start looking for ways to get that positively. :D
 
Back To Top
Top