Something to think about

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by steelcult
...the Iraqi\'s should be given the same opportunities we gave the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans.

The opportunity to have the shit bombed out of them then be occupied by enemy forces for years? The only reason the US gets involved is because it\'s in their interests. You can make it sound like charity all you like but US foreign policy is as brutal and selfish as most other empires that have gone before.

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Originally posted by steelcult
...the Iraqi\'s should be given the same opportunities we gave the Germans, Japanese, and Koreans.

The opportunity to have the shit bombed out of them then be occupied by enemy forces for years? The only reason the US gets involved is because it\'s in their interests. You can make it sound like charity all you like but US foreign policy is as brutal and selfish as most other empires that have gone before.

Never said there was a non self interested motive involved anywhere, did I?

 

[MarkusTay]

Hmmmmmmmm....

I agree with everyone.

This might seem two-faced, but actually no one is wrong and no-one is entirely right.

Dave, Martyn - The military is neccessary, War is neccessary, no one is arguiing that point. If we had no militery we would all loose all the wonderful creature comforts that we have grown accustomed to tomorrow. Killing people, even civilians, is an ugly but NECCESSARY part of keeping our society going. If we stopped fighting for what we have, Anarchy would sink us back into the stone age within a few months.

To everyone else - I agree with the fact that the facts posted were un-related to the business at hand, and seemed a cheap way of convincing people We Are Right. There is a section of South-central LA that the police, fire department, ambulances, etc... DO NOT ENTER. It has been gang controlled for many years, and anyone who attempts to go in there WILL be killed. Much worse situation then the murders in Detroit; we can\'t even control a section of our own country. We COULD send in the military to re-take control... but since there are NO resources and NO strategic reason for it it will never happen. What does this have to do with Iraq? Not a hill of beans, and that\'s my point. You can\'t compare different points in time at different places around the world, it doesn\'t work that way.

Should we have invaded Iraq? Probably not. Should we stay and \'fix\' things? Morally... we are obligated to... now.

To say we have to \'pick our fights\' does rub me the wrong way, but Dave does have a point. We can\'t correct every wrong on the planet, so we only \'correct\' those that benefit us. We\'ve had a base in the Phillipines forever, and because it was CRUCIAL to us, we turned the other way about the ABUSES the Marcos regime was imposing on his own people. When the Revolution came there all on it\'s own, we had to beg to keep our base because the people there pretty much hated the fact that we turned there home into a shoreleave \'party place\'. I\'ve never been in the military, but a friend of mine who was in the Navy during the seveties said \"I loved the Phillipines. You can go out and eat, drink, suck and f__k all night long for ten bucks... and come home with change\". Lovely way to describe someone\'s homeland.

There is no right and wrong here, just the fact that human beings are basically ANIMALS when it comes to treating each other with respect. Actually, that\'s an insult to animals... they DO respect each other. We are much worse, in general, as a race but not as individuals.

There will ALWAYS have to be people that go out and fight for us, and there will always HAVE to be those of us that protest about the conflicts. It\'s a system of checks and balances that we unfortunately need until we learn to all treat each other the way we would like to be treated. As a Christian, I\'m hoping that day isn\'t far off.

As an intelligent scientifically minded human being... I still worry...

Just my two cents... I\'m not taking sides... there really isn\'t any black and white, just many shades of grey...

 

[War Griffon]

I was not saying that my origonal post was right or wrong or as I stated at the start that it was anti policy bashing on my part or anything.

I am military (although obviously not US) and after 29 years and still going in the Navy I have always had a guts full of the way a lot of people and polititians treat their armed forces. Hence my 2nd post in this thread with regards to a lot of the UK public thinking they pay our wages when in fact we pay more tax than most of the sponging b*&*&*&*s put together (sorry that one has always gripped me by the short and curlies).

Having been involved with the Falklands War, the Gulf War of 90 and the last one and also in force protecton for the Afganistan start (was in the wrong place for Bosnia) and spent 6 hours keeping a ship afloat after it hit a bloody great rock which all simulation programs and boffins said should have sunk.

The bit that rankled me on this was the case of the armed forces not being a job. And ranks up there with people thinking we do not pay taxes or that their taxes pay ours.

We do a job when things go right and people think it is patriotic to do so we get a bit of priase and are then forgotten or kicked back under the bench till another one comes along we get used as the governments scape goats for their dirty work and political mish mash and when they cannot get it right even in their own country we are the go between and peace keepers/trash collectors/firefighters for dustmen strikes/fire strikes and even to ensure that petrol gets through when civilians are fed up of paying over £1.00 a litre for petrol at the pumps.

Despite the facts that we do all this as part of our jobs and the job we signed up to do we are told we do not have real jobs.

How many people would want to do my job on a regular basis even without the having to be prepared to fight side of it the stress alone would equate to most equivalent jobs only being done for a few years before moving on because they are to stressed to continue.

Stress brought in from travelling regulary on weekends to get home and go back again, stress from long hours during the week if not at sea and then double that if I am at sea, on average I will work 42 hours over a five day period more often longer when alongside at sea that can go up conciderably because it then becomes a 7 day week and don\'t forget the armed forces do not get over time.

We are rapidly becoming something the politicians want to forget/disband/wind down so that they can line their own pockets with bigger pay rises but still expect the forces to double their work load for the same rate of pay as the previous year and all the time keep the equipemnt they have working and in good order and also the machinery in top working order despite politics and cut backs on stores to actually do this.

The armed forces are even disciminated over here when it comes to insurance policies for cars houses and things like that hell even special forces insurance discriminates against us incase they have to pay out to our families.

My main point of the origonal post was the senetators reply. True or false or made 20 years ago I don\'t know or care but it goes to show how little the armed forces of any country are thought of by others of their country except once a year on Rememberance day and how many of them would like to forget that...

Rank over decifer it how you will.

P.S It is a job I have enjoyed over the years very much and still do which is why I continue to do so but sometimes the policy and politics involved can really get to you.

 

[Infidel Castro]

War, spelled backwards, reads RAW. Isn\'t that something? I also made ARW out of it, which may (or may not) be some kind of shrew. Something for all of you to think about I reckon. :]

 

[Shawn R. L.]

Michael Moore has made more off the war in Iraq (through his film Farenheight 9-11) than Haliburton.

 

[Dammekkos2]

The first war ever recorded was in 1768, between Mexico and Canada. Over 8 million cheyene warriors died on the first day alone.

The largest number of black eyes recorded in battle is 471, at the battle of Gimli\'s arse in 1997.

Belgium has never invaded France, or Spain.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Was it recorded on celluloid?

Have you gone mad?

 

[Dammekkos2]

Unfortunately none of this is recorded in the \"official\" history books, some sort of conspiracy no doubt.

 

[Astorderire]

Did anyone read \"The Myth of the Good War: America in the Second World War\" or \"The Rogue State\"?

 

[MarkusTay]

History is written by the winners

And will therefore always be inaccurate. I\'m sure if Japan and Germany had won WWII portraits of Hitler would have halo\'s around his head and the Emperor would smell like roses. Hey wait... wasn\'t Italy involved in that too? ???

Or did they just invade themselves? lol

Have you ever read a book on the Indian Wars? Oh.. I\'m sorry... did I say war? TRY SLAUGHTER! Oh yeah... we\'re the good guys alrighty...

Power corrupts... and Ultimate Power corrupts ultimately.

I saw a program on the History channel (modern marvels) that claimed EACH of our super-carriers could SINGLE-HANDEDLY take on an entire modern nation. So what they were saying was that one could take on Britain, one for France, one for Israel... think about it. They were basically saying that the U.S. could take on the world all by itself! Pretty irresponsible Television for the \'History\' channel. Sounds more like pro-American propaganda then \'History\'. And what kind of message was it supposed to be sending by making that off-handed statement? Everyone else better just watch their ass?

That\'s why I watch the British news, at least I know it will only have a \'mild\' slant to it compared to ours.

How many of you Americans growing up in the sixties and seventies remember sitting under your desk in school and putting your head between your legs (to kiss your ass goodbye)? All because the EVIL Russians were going to land on our shores any day and kill us all. Well... the Soviets had their people scared $hitless of us too! It\'s all head games the guys in charge play with us to keep us believing that we need them.

Human beings just want to live their lives in piece, it\'s Governments and organizations that promote War.

funny word that... We Are Right.

Sorry for this semi-rant, I normally sit on the fence when it comes to the military. But I just watched the movie Platoon the other day, and watched Casualties of War about three weeks ago, so I\'m a littled sickened by the whole thing at the moment.

 

[supervike]

all I know is...

I don\'t want to live in Iraq or Detroit.

 

[Astorderire]

nor in Aulnay sous Bois...

 

[paintingploddy]

Evil dave, yes you can overthrow any government you want, or bomb any economy into submission. I don\'t deny that. I don\'t think that is in your interests. You have a quarter of your military involved in occupying two mid sized countries (and the forces engaged in Afghanistan are fairly small comparatively). You can\'t seriously garrison a third country while maintaining your existing commitments. I don\'t know numbers but I believe retention rates in your armed forces are falling, and recruitments are down. That is no reflection on the US, it appears to be happening in most western nations without conscription. While you concentrate on the War Against Terror China has been very active building economic, military and political ties worldwide.

On a side note Marcus. You say in your answer:
If we had no war we would have no creature comforts that we have grown accustomed to tomorrow. Killing people, even civillians, is an ugly but necessary part of keeping our society going.

My question is, if we are killing people deliberately to keep our creature comforts, does that make us the tyrants? If these acts are engaged in for this motive does that make the actions of the western nations evil?

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by paintingploddy
My question is, if we are killing people deliberately to keep our creature comforts, does that make us the tyrants? If these acts are engaged in for this motive does that make the actions of the western nations evil?

Yes. It does. Assuming we are killing for those reasons. Which is the point of so much debate, of course... However I don\'t think anyone but (some) Americans think the Americans\' motives in Iraq are pure, or anything better than partly self-serving. It seems everyone I know here in Canada feels that the war is purely to advance cryptic foreign policy objectives of the US Right (namely a global Monroe Doctrine).

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by paintingploddy
Evil dave, yes you can overthrow any government you want, or bomb any economy into submission. I don\'t deny that. I don\'t think that is in your interests. You have a quarter of your military involved in occupying two mid sized countries (and the forces engaged in Afghanistan are fairly small comparatively). You can\'t seriously garrison a third country while maintaining your existing commitments. I don\'t know numbers but I believe retention rates in your armed forces are falling, and recruitments are down. That is no reflection on the US, it appears to be happening in most western nations without conscription. While you concentrate on the War Against Terror China has been very active building economic, military and political ties worldwide.

That\'s what I was saying, it would be National suicide for us to go and try taking care of all the worlds problems alone, but since we are doing it alone (or actually, doing the majority) we pick actions that will benefit us.
I\'m sure if the UN lent a hand, and helped foot the bill we\'d be more than happy to go in and straigten Zimbabwe out, however without that help Zimbabwe\'s problems don\'t benefit or particularly harm us.
So why should we take the risks? Is it our responsibility? Or wasn\'t the United Nations created for such a purpose?
Democracy in Iraq has many more benefits than just oil, not only are the majority of the people free from the tyrany of the minority, but Iraq is right smack dab in the middle.
Democracy tends to spread when your neighbors see how nice it is to have a say in their government.
If this works it could be the first step in bringing peace to a land that has been in turmoil for centuries. Which doesn\'t just benefit the US, it benefits everyone.
If we\'d have followed the UN , Saddam would still be in power, the Iraqi people would still be suffering under a cruel regime , having no say so in their government, and there would be the same turmoil going on that has always gone on.
At least we\'re trying. So it benefits us, it benefits the Iraqi\'s more.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
You can call it a war, such as the war on poverty, the war against drugs, but that does not make it a true war.

What does then? I\'d say the fact that our armed forces are under orders to enter a foreign country and kill people does.

And here\'s the thing I don\'t understand, did our congressmen who voted for the war not understand we were going to be in this for the long haul? Why are they buckling now?

Well, first of all the administration said it wouldn\'t be a long haul. If the congressmen and women were stupid enough to believe him they are now complaining but justifiedly.

Now just the other day the Republicans put forth a vote for immediate withdrawal.
Now this vote was going to fail, but it gave those who where constantly talking the talk a chance to show what they believe in.
It failed 403-3.
So even those preaching an immediate withdrawal didn\'t have the integrity, or the balls, to vote where their mouths are.

Please tell me who those were that were preaching an immediate withdrawal? I think they voted where their mouths were. I think it was the 3 who voted yes. It certainly wasn\'t a large or loud portion of Congress or the Democrat party. The preaching in opposition to the administration is and has always been, \"what\'s the exit strategy?\"
No sane person wanted immediate withdrawal and the Republicans who called for the vote were wasting more of my tax money.

FURTHER
a. FDR deceptively led us into World War II.

Please explain what was the deception. My understanding is Japan attacked us.

b. Germany never attacked us; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 112,500 per year.

True, but Germany officially declared war on us. No one officially declares war any more.

As to Reno and the Branch Davidians, that ended with them all being killed. The Iraq war could end quickly if we killed all Iraqi\'s too (note I do not recommend this - though some US soldiers occupying France after pushing out Germany did suggest killing all the French so they could go home).

Finally,
War Griffon, you should join the US military. The pay sucks, but you get all sorts of benefits such as car dealers charge lower interest rates, you get priority in applying for any federal jobs etc. etc. (of course you\'d have to give up socialized health care)

 

[War Griffon]

Vince giving up socialised health care would be the least of my worries.

I hate hospitals (they make me feel ill) and I don\'t trust doctors as most of them put there heads in the books to try and guess what is wrong with you then treat the symptom not the cause.

The Navy is supposed to have the best medical facilities in the country over here but that is probably why they have closed down most of the military hospitals and amalgamated into civilian hospitals.

The government probably have several motives for this:
1) it hides the shortage of nurses and doctors in the NHS.
2) The military gets to use modern upto date technology on the wards they now share with the NHS as the NHS hasn\'t got the staff to use it.
3) by being in with the NHS it helps with military cut backs and hides our own retention figures.

As for perks between the US military and the UK well I think that has been covered time and time again even by the press.

 

[MarkusTay]

This thread is depressing

let\'s all get drunk and NOT DRIVE.

I think that\'s something we can all agree on.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by vincegamer

Originally posted by Evil Dave
You can call it a war, such as the war on poverty, the war against drugs, but that does not make it a true war.

What does then? I\'d say the fact that our armed forces are under orders to enter a foreign country and kill people does.

A war is a open hostility declared between Nations, the insurgents do not represent the Iraqi government and are wanted out by them as well.

And here\'s the thing I don\'t understand, did our congressmen who voted for the war not understand we were going to be in this for the long haul? Why are they buckling now?

Well, first of all the administration said it wouldn\'t be a long haul. If the congressmen and women were stupid enough to believe him they are now complaining but justifiedly.
[/quote]
The official war with Iraq was over a long time ago, now the congressmen were idiots if they didn\'t realize we would have to police the area for years if not decades, it is incredibly idiotic to assume we could just go in take out Saddam\'s regime and leave.

As for a timetable on leaving, we leave when the job is done.
You may be ok with the half assed measures the UN uses, but I am not, and would prefer to do the job right the first time so we don\'t have to go back later because we pulled out too early.
I\'m sure if you were the Iraqi citizens and you were constantly being targetted by religious fanatics, you\'d want as much help as possible for however long it takes.