Something to think about

Dedwrekka

New member
Originally posted by War Griffon
Ok Don\'t take this the wrong way it is not meant as a bash at US polotics but something that was sent to me earlier this afternoon :D

Things that make you think a little:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January.
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the
month of January.That\'s just one American city,
about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.
Long story short, anyone can take the a worst month of crime from a city and compair it to anywhere else and say it means something, it doesn\'t.

When some claim that President Bush shouldn\'t
have started this war, state the following:



a. FDR deceptively led us into World War II.

b. Germany never attacked us; Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 112,500 per year.
Military tactics, common sense, and WWI tell us that if we had just attacked Japan, the Germans wern\'t just going to sit around as we killed their ally. Yes, there was behind the scenes issues, like the fact that the US like in WWII had a lot of invested interest in keeping Western Europe out of Hitler\'s claws. It worked out in the end.

c. Truman finished that war and started one in Korea.
North Korea never attacked us.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ...
an average of 18,334 per year.
Truman didn\'t start the war, he just f\'ed it up (I say this because he was playing favorites with his generals not just because he was president at the time). United Nations started the war (the reason it was called a police action) after communist North Korea attacked South Korea. War was put to a vote by the UN and only succeeded in being passed because the USSR representative wasn\'t there to veto it as he had boycotted the meeting because of what it was about (Sometimes we just slip up in our jobs...)


d. John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked us.


e. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ..
an average of 5,800 per year.
(I wasn\'t there so for those who were or were around there please don\'t let me offend you if I slip in my tact.)
The second part if fairly correct, but the quagmire was only completed durring Jhonson\'s term, it was begun before that by the mentality among the higher-ups that we should not take ground. If we had been allowed to actually take the ground and move up instead of trying to standstill them to death, we could have had a few more casualties or a few less but hindsight is 20/20. What\'s not Hindsight is that politics starts wars, and if a politician is going to start a war then they should stay out of the workings of the war or go there and actually fight it out. \"War is old men talking and young men dieing\"
f. Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked us.
He was offered Osama bin Laden\'s head on a platter three
times by Sudan and did nothing.
Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
Bosnia- Seriously, do you think anyone would ever let us live it down if we hadn\'t gone in there? There was some Grade A prarie-cakes (Avoiding the other words for sake of the message) going down in there. America got a lot of bad rep from the reports that we supposedly new about the Holocaust long before Japan attacked, were we about to let entire areas of people be killed? No!

g. In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush
has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled
al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and North
Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who
slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.
Kinda interesting facts huh? Media blindsiding isn\'t always 20/20 then...

The Democrats are complaining
about how long the war is taking.
But .
It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno
to take the Branch Davidian compound.
That was a 51-day operation.
Bad examples all way way round! Get em while their still controversial!

We\'ve been looking for evidence for chemical weapons
in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find
the Rose Law Firm billing records.



It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the
Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard
than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his
Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick
Ooo...and it\'s a low blow against America\'s deserving punching bag!

It took less time to take Iraq than it took
to count the votes in Florida!!!!
So very very true...yet so sad...

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB !
The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant
to realize the facts

But Wait . there\'s more!

JOHN GLENN (ON THE SENATE FLOOR)
Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don\'t understand why military personnel
do what they do for a living. This exchange between
Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum
is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it\'s also a good example of one man\'s explanation of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum (speaking to Senator Glenn):
\"How can you run for Senate
when you\'ve never held a real job?\"

Senator Glenn (D-Ohio):
\"I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.
I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions.
My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn\'t my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was
not a nine-to-five job, where I took my tie off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank.\"

\"I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day...to a veteran\'s hospital and look those men ...with their mangled bodies . in the eye, and tell THEM
they didn\'t hold a job!

You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and Orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee...and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn\'t hold a job.

You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I\'d like to remember, and you watch those waving flags

You stand there, and you think about this nation,
and you tell ME that those people didn\'t have a job?

What about you?\"


For those who don\'t remember ..
During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney
representing the Communist Party in the USA.

Now he\'s a Senator !

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.
If it wern\'t for the partizan politics, the ranting and the down right sloping of each statement made by the person who sent that, it\'d almost be a worthy of me opening it and reading it myself instead of simply dropping it in the spam folder.
 

War Griffon

New member
Originally posted by MarkusTay
let\'s all get drunk and NOT DRIVE.

I think that\'s something we can all agree on. ;)

Nice idea I would love to do that but alass I have to drive in about 3 hours time as I am back out to sea tomorrow.
 

MarkusTay

New member
So much for changing the subject...

paintingploddy - and everyone else who might have mistook my intent. We could disband all our militaries tomorrow, along with the governmaents and any other armed form of contol on people (police, etc...) and the world will unfortunately be a far worse place to live then it is now. What would stop your large hairy neighbor from hoping the fence, clubbing your wife, and dragging her back to his house? people are human, but not neccessarily humane. Have you ever seen what happens during a riot? or a black-out? or even a civil disaster? People run amok, flip cars, burn buildings... without the threat of being shot dead held over our heads constantly we behave worse then animals. I didn\'t mean someone should die just so I can keep my big-screen TV, but unfortunately that\'s kinda what it boils down to in the end. You want to feel safe? Someone\'s got to die.

It sucks, but thats life... and death. :(

I\'ll say this again, just in case someone didn\'t catch it the first two times. I\'m am neither for or against war/military... it\'s just a neccessary evil we have to accept.

And I\'m not calling ANYONE in the military evil. I\'d better nip that in the bud before it even starts. Soldiers are doing their job so we can go on doing ours. Thats it, end of story.

Edit: this was written before Martyn\'s post, so I appreciate that someone tried to help me steer this off-topic... so how \'bout those Mets? :D
 

MarkusTay

New member
Sorry, NYer showing through.

That\'s a VERY common expression here when people want to change the subject quickly. The Mets are a NY baseball team, and you either love them or hate them, so they are rather useful for starting up an entirely different argument. ;)
 

paintingploddy

New member
What\'s baseball?

Seriously Marcus I understand what you are trying to say and agree the military is necessary as an insurance policy. I disagree the killing is necessary to have our creature comforts. I served for 8 years in our Reserves, and have some friends who serve in our regular forces, and who have been on active deployment in Somalia, east timor, and Bougainville. I just prefer to try and look at both sides.

Evil dave, if you can point me to an actual declaration of war made by the US or any other country I\'d love to see it. My understanding was after Nuremberg world leaders try to cloak their wars in other euphamisms such as Police Action. I stand to be corrected but I believe a declaration of war is a diplomatic nicety that is ignored by all and sundry.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by paintingploddy
What\'s baseball?

Seriously Marcus I understand what you are trying to say and agree the military is necessary as an insurance policy. I disagree the killing is necessary to have our creature comforts. I served for 8 years in our Reserves, and have some friends who serve in our regular forces, and who have been on active deployment in Somalia, east timor, and Bougainville. I just prefer to try and look at both sides.

Evil dave, if you can point me to an actual declaration of war made by the US or any other country I\'d love to see it. My understanding was after Nuremberg world leaders try to cloak their wars in other euphamisms such as Police Action. I stand to be corrected but I believe a declaration of war is a diplomatic nicety that is ignored by all and sundry.
Simply put a war is between nations, wheter it be declared or not. We went to war against Iraq, we defeated the regime and put a new government in place. The new Iraqi government want\'s us to take down the insurgents, therefore it is not a war.
 

vincegamer

Active member
Well, according to Wikipedia,
\"War is a state of widespread conflict between states, organisations, or relatively large groups of people...\"

I\'d say there are relatively large groups of people fighting us in Iraq.

It\'s all semantics anyway. Calling it a war and then defining a war as being between nations allows you to say it is over when the people you were fighting haven\'t stopped fighting.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by vincegamer
Well, according to Wikipedia,
\"War is a state of widespread conflict between states, organisations, or relatively large groups of people...\"

I\'d say there are relatively large groups of people fighting us in Iraq.

It\'s all semantics anyway. Calling it a war and then defining a war as being between nations allows you to say it is over when the people you were fighting haven\'t stopped fighting.

Um, No, the people we went in fighting were the Republican Guard of Iraq, and the government of Iraq, these insurgents are neither. They are merely murderers targetting their own people, or if they are Syrians, as a lot of our soldiers are saying they are t,hen it is possible we could take these as undeclared acts of war from Syria upon the government of Iraq.

Merriam-Webster\'s defines war as such:1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations.
Since Wikipedia can be editted by anyone I prefer a true dictionary.

In other words I could declare war on the United States, I could even get a large group of people following me, but since I am not a nation or a state it is not a war.
It would be like trying to say the Branch Davidian conflict was a war.

But the real question is this, are we so afraid and offended by the violence , that we\'re willing to pull out before the government of Iraq is ready?
Are you willing to let the Iraqi\'s be destroyed?

You guys probably can\'t comprehend the idea of being a nation smack in the middle of hostile nations, I know the Canadians can\'t, they rely on us, and always will, the Austrailians are surrounded on all sides by water.
But try to imagine being in a country, in where everyone sharing your borders would gladly destroy your family, your friends, everyone you know. You\'d for damn sure want your government and your military up to strength.
 

vincegamer

Active member
Hypothetical

suppose a man is manufacturing and selling Methamphetamines.

he uses the money he gets from the sales to pay for his daughter\'s chemotherapy.
If he stops making and selling meth, he can\'t buy the chemo and she will die.

should he continue manufacturing and selling methamphetamines?
 

paintingploddy

New member
No because she may die in a tragic lab accident, or get shot by some of his lowlife acquanitances or lose his support when he gets busted by the police and locked up.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by vincegamer
suppose a man is manufacturing and selling Methamphetamines.

he uses the money he gets from the sales to pay for his daughter\'s chemotherapy.
If he stops making and selling meth, he can\'t buy the chemo and she will die.

should he continue manufacturing and selling methamphetamines?
Hypothetically?
Should he? No. Will he? Yes. If he truly loves his daughter, however, he should be also looking at an alternative means to support her, it takes a bit of brains and know how to run a successful meth lab. Apply those brains elsewhere.
 

Joshua

Member
lol by the time i read through and postet this post there were 10 new poste, making my statement absolutly redundant ^^
 

paintingploddy

New member
One quote I quite like is:

\"War is an ugly thing, but it is not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.\"
John Stuart Mill.

I don\'t necessarily agree with the whole quote and it may be out of context but I like it.
 

vincegamer

Active member
Nice quote.

I don\'t think there is nothing worth war.
I\'m just not convinced the situation in Iraq was/is worth war.
 
Back To Top
Top