Sounds reasonable...

vincegamer

Active member
Originally posted by finn17 they constantly train with live ammo.

I was on an archaeological dig in Oklahoma once and my professor talked about finding \"projectile points\" on another dig. Usually, as you particularly know, this means stone arrowheads, but he said many of the points he found he\'d probably fired, since the area being dug was used for infantry arms training in WWII. :)
 

tidoco2222

Active member
British army infantry training does involve the use of live ammunition but that is mainly on the firing ranges. Whereas the SAS train constantly with live ammo I believe.
I served in the Infantry for a number of years and during my basic training we only used live ammunition once outside of the range and that was on battle camp.
Obviuosly we were shooting at targets and fire was returned well over our heads pretty scary all the same.
 

minimart

New member
Violence begets violence, I agree with Astonia. When they first started the take back the night nights here, a solidarity of women march against violence, I wanted to show my support. There was something that happened, and it only happened in the first year but it reflects the thoughts and feelings of those who have no other way to channel their fears and emotions. The chant of \"cut it out or cut it off\" were very chilling. As if removal of a body part would somehow create equality and respect.

Equality is created through kindness and caring. It is created by those who value people around them. Equality is an environment that is the result of care, concern and plain gratitude for what we have and who we are.

I look forward to a world where love and kindness begets love and kindness, not abuse and being taken advantage of.:innocent:
 

wiccanpony

Official Freak Bar Witch
:)it’s going to take a whole lot of education to change the world and you need to start with the children, the younger the better....also I’m so glad I live where I do, I can say, believe, and think, without dying for it.
 

tidoco2222

Active member
Originaly posted by minimart I look forward to a world where love and kindness begets love and kindness, not abuse and being taken advantage of.:innocent:

Yes that would be a day to look forward too. Having been in the army and served sevaral tours of Northern Ireland I have experienced first hand the unpleasentness of being on the wrong end of someone elses ideals from people of different ages and sexes and I can tell you it is not pleasant.
 

darthfoley

Active member
Originally posted by vincegamer
There are many Muslims all around the world, making Islam something other than the culture of the Fertile Crescent, and so far as I recall, the Quran does not tell them to beat their wives.

Quran, Final Testament

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD\'s commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.\'


So as long as women obey, no problem (aside from the whole \'you obey me because I\'m better and God says so\' thing). But if not, the above *can* be interpreted as condoning the physical disciplining of the wife, if \'all else fails\'. Unfortunately I think far too many of the Middle Eastern nations follow that interpretation.

Not that the Quran is alone:

I Timothy 2:11-14
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


I Corinthians 11:8-9 KJV
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


etc etc etc.

Extreme examples? Perhaps.
 

minimart

New member
The patriarchal order of most religions implies that there is more going on than simply a wife subjucating herself to her husband. If it is true that the woman is made for the man, it is because man was not meant to be alone. I know from my life experience that if I beat my wife I would be alone;) Communism would be perfect if not for the greed and power seeking nature of man. Religion too would be perfect except for those same nasty attributes. A person becomes the strongest when they subdue those primal instincts that cause some of us to look at each other and go how could he/she do that. No religion on earth should condone the mistreatment of another if their hearts and spirits are truely aligned with the God that they purport to worship.

Religion and patriarchal society....on a mini forum?:eek:
 
T

t_haye2

Guest
Superior rant warning!!!

Originally posted by tidoco2222
Thank you primeval that is basically the point that I was trying to get accross. You only have to look at the control a middle eastern man has over a middle eastern woman on everyday issues such as how to dress and so forth to see the male dominance of the culture.

An interesting point, but where do we westerners get the balls from to judge a culture becuase it\'s male dominated? now don\'t get me wrong, I DO NOT CONDONE ABUSE/RAPE/VIOLENCE, but I am of the firm belief that we \'enlightened\' westerners are the most arrogant sons of female dogs you will ever meet.

So what if their culture is male dominated? That\'s their culture, and we have no right to make any judgement over that. Frankly, coming from a society where females have only had the right to vote for the last 80 odd years, it\'s actually pretty hypocritical.

I have always been of the firm belief that even though a culture works by different rules that I myself would find utterly appaling to have to abide by, I have no right to judge that culture, just because I do not understand or even agree with it. The fact is that in many middle eastern and eastern countries, where arranged mariages are quite common, where the woman has a seemingly \'underling\' position compared with men(although the woman is in most cases dominant within the domestic household), they are quite happy to abide by these rules. This is a way of living that has preceded western civilisation by thousands of years, and on the whole, seems to work. It has flaws, like our own ways of life have flaws. Rape, abuse and even spouse and child murders are occuring every day in the western civilized world, and are as much a result of todays\' anxiety and incapability of being able to find balance as it is in those countries.

I find news items such as that shocking, but not more shocking as the story of the lady who won courtcase against a microwave company for not stating in their manual you couldn\'t use it to dry your pet.

Right now a British man is being held hostage by a bunch of political fanatics while his family plead with the government to give the hostage takers what they want, knowing full well that the governemnt will not, and he is a dead man walking.

right now there are children being beaten to a bloody pulp by their fathers in america, becuase their mothers haven\'t made enough money hooking to afford their husband\'s drug habit.

right now in europe somewhere there is a man living on the street, forgotten by society because it is convenient, because he didn\'t fit in, or there were simply no people left to care about him.

i\'m not saying these things are not terrible, they are, but i feel strongly that as a race, human beings have lost their way, and we would all do better and look around us a bit more, instead of looking into the shiny mirror that the media puts in front of our face. Although by no means a religious person, sometimes, I do beleive the carpenter had a few good points...

Ok, rant over, you can come stone my arse now....
 

tidoco2222

Active member
Ok Tammy you have raised some very good points there and it is obviously a subject that you feel very strongly about and quite rightly so.
While I admit that you are quite right to question our own western morality or lack of as the case may be, if you were in a midde eastern culture situation you would probably not even have been allowed to make that comment without incurring the anger of others inthat society instead you would have to fume in silence.
I do not want to stone your arse but I would much chat with you about it over a few bevvies.
 
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t_haye2

Guest
but there you go...if i was from a middle eastern culture, ~I would most probably not believe that having an opinion like that would be proper, and frankly, i would not have it in the first place, so again, you are judging other cultures by western standards...you cannot do that, it doesn\'t work like that.

Few bevvies sounds fine, you\'re paying :p
 
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t_haye2

Guest
oh, but it\'s so easy to get me ranting....gimme a soapbox and i\'ll stand on it! (I was actually picking up some great pointers on /trafalgar Square this weekend, some religious nut doing his thing..pretty impressive...) It\'s also because I\'m not feeling well, and that get\'s me a bit...opinionated ;):):)lollollollollollol....i did mean everything i said though :)
 

Jas

New member
Spot on Tammy...

This post kinda annoyed me... For the reasons Tammy outlined above.
\'Arrogant Westerners....\'

That about sums it up for me... And another point, the USA and UK along with many other countires have absolutley no legs to stand on when it comes to \'Moral\'
behaviour in the World.

Rant over...

Peace Y\'all!
 

tooshy

Active member
No excuse.....no reason....

...it\'s not brave or clever to hit someone who is incapable of defending themselves. Respect is earned.. not taken. But sometimes it\'s harder to leave an abuser than to stay.
 

Ebonbuddha

Active member
IF you have read any of my post about life here in Korea, you know I put up with some shite. Back in July (20 July to be exact. It\'s my wifes birthday) I was going to the ATM to get money. I wanted to make her a surprise birthday dinner. Anyway, there are these guys who I think want to be a gang, or whatever. They have been harrassing me for nine months to a year. Constant insults. They even got so bold as to go and get their girlfriends and start stuff with me to look macho.
On that day in July I tried to scare them off by saying I was telling the Police. Instead I went across the street to the bank. From across the street I hear four of these idiots \"Hey Pig!!! F*ck you pig!!!\" I ignored them and went into the bank. WHen I came out the idiots were waiting outside. They one of their friends there to film them harrassing me with their camera phone. The usually comments were spewing from their mouths. I tried to cross the street and the cross walk light changed. Then one of them says, \"Hehe. Red light.\" So I turned around, pushed him and said, \"Leave me the f*ck alone.\" Keep in mind I\'m 6\'5\" and 350 lbs. I can bench press 100 kgs, leg press 200-260 kg...you get the idea. I sent the guy flying away from me. He then gets up and runs back at me. Then I slapped him. It was loud enough to stop all of the people walking by and the street vendors\' talking and yelling. Then in Korean I told him to \"Hurry here stupid bitch.\" He seemed surprised that I knew some Korean. He didn\'t move. Just sat there with this old man telling him to stop bothering me and a red mark on his face.
Now when he sees me coming down the street he and his boys cross over onto the other side. And they don\'t make a peep.

Morale of the story?
Two wrongs don\'t make a right. But I felt a helluva lot better.


Originally posted by Astonia
Originally posted by tidoco2222Personaly I think the abusers should be given a taste of their own medicine.

While I totally agrre with most of what you\'re saying, I just think this is totally wrong. Violence breeds violence
 

No Such Agency

New member
So what if their culture is male dominated? That\'s their culture, and we have no right to make any judgement over that. Frankly, coming from a society where females have only had the right to vote for the last 80 odd years, it\'s actually pretty hypocritical.
Sorry, I reserve the right to judge anyone\'s culture, anywhere, on the grounds that it systematically subjugates any group. Does your culture considers women to be property, mere reproductive chattel to generate sons and more chattel? Your culture sucks. Does it love to tout that women are \"equal\", while at the same time wallowing in the sexuality of (unrealistically slender and buxom) women being used to sell cellular telephones, beer, magazines and cars? Your culture also sucks.

Sorry, I thought I was still on fark.com for a second there... I think the internet (except you guys :D) is bottoming out my belief in the innate goodness of humanity.
 

Primeval

New member
Originally posted by Jas
This post kinda annoyed me... For the reasons Tammy outlined above.
\'Arrogant Westerners....\'


I am wishing I had never started this thread. I was disturbed by the story because of its content, NOT the nationality of the people involved. I believe I even said I was not posting for any political reasons. I don\'t believe in using culture or nationality as either a shield or a damnation for a person\'s behavior - responsibility ultimately lies in the hands of the individual.
 

minimart

New member
No culture has the patent on morality or lack thereof. Morality is an internal that is unique to each one of us. That being said there is no way that we are all the same. Hopefully we all associate with like minded people so that we comfortable or whatever other word you want to use. When something in the world happens that gets our back up then we push back, Sometimes in a physical or verbal way, sometimes intellectually.....\"Can\'t wait till that copper nails your speeding butt\" and the thought alone pacifies us.

Morality is not dictated by a society, by a government or by a religion. It is dictated by each of us individually. It is a pattern that is established by making a conscious decision. Morality is neither good or bad by itself but rather is a collection of the actions of a person over their lifetime based on experience.

The 45 year old man who has a wife with cancer, a mother in law with cancer, who has had a stroke himself and a knee replacement, who has administered cpr at 2:00 in the morning to a man thrown off a motor cycle because 35 other people did not know how to or were too scared to is going to have a different sense of the value of life than when he was say 18. That is not to say that his moral compass was misaligned at 18 but rather a sense of what is right becaome more passionate as he grew older. That does not mean that his moral compass is pointed due north all the time. However after his life is done what at the time may have seemed a very varied course turns out to be a relatively straight path.

At the end of this I quess what I am trying to say is that it is the value of life, the gratitude we have for who we are and what we have however much or little it may be is a better measure of who we really are. The true value in life is our relationships. If our individual morality is guided by that thought our world would likely be a different place to live.

Rant over as I try to make my corner of the world a little better and brighter one day at a time.:innocent:
 

finn17

New member
You barbarian bastard you...

Originally posted by Primeval
I am wishing I had never started this thread.
You wish you\'d never started this thread....Not half as much as I do:D
 
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