Sounds reasonable...
- Thread starter Primeval
- Start date
LOL...and possibly LOL again...
It\'s been demonstrated time and time again and it is a real credit to our little community that we can have such diverse opinions and still respect each other whilst enjoying the \'cut and thrust\' of intellectual debate...
Besides..everyone will get bored shitless in about 1.5 days time and it will fade away
Whilst the subject itself is \'edgy\' and plays on people\'s raw sensibilities, I have absolute trust in the CMON community\'s ability to debate even the most contentious of issues without ever stepping out of line...Originally posted by Primeval
I obviously wasn\'t thinking of the issues that would come out of it...
Use your magic powers to make it go away, there will be no barbaric hordes complaining if it goes
It\'s been demonstrated time and time again and it is a real credit to our little community that we can have such diverse opinions and still respect each other whilst enjoying the \'cut and thrust\' of intellectual debate...
Besides..everyone will get bored shitless in about 1.5 days time and it will fade away
Pretty much what Tammy said, although I don\'t think you can use culture as an excuse for wrongdoing, the western world are a bunch of hypocrites.
I\'m waiting for this one to filter through...
\"love thy neighbour\"
Nothing much happened in 2000+ years, but you can always hope...
I\'m waiting for this one to filter through...
\"love thy neighbour\"
Nothing much happened in 2000+ years, but you can always hope...
Ebonbuddha
Active member
Hey everybody!!! Let\'s play Word Association.
Originally posted by finn17
You wish you\'d never started this thread....Not half as much as I do
(Hey, a soapbox!)
The problem with that is that culture will tell you what\'s wrong and what\'s right. I can well imagine that the couple comes from a village where society considers it normal to be abusive to your wife. They may not understand at all why they are in court, while the reason for that is that a larger society that their society is part of (the country) does consider it to be wrong.
This will only happen when they have had exposure to different ways of living. If they have the chance and courage to think about that they will be able to make choices and it becomes much more than before their responsibility. In that respect I do hope that the sentence will not just mean punishment but also education. Because it will not really change anything otherwise.
For us this may be harder to understand since all of us have had exposure to different cultures and lives through TV, internet, travels, etc. Because of that we have many more choices if it comes to values in life. I feel we are much more personally responsible for our actions than that couple. If I would be that man I should be much more punished since I knew there were alternatives but still made the choice of doing something that it consider wrong by my own values and those of the society I\'m in.
Should societies like that be changed? Hard to say. They would actually have to make the choice themselves. So best thing is to inform them. And that\'s what you see volunteers and agencies doing. They tell people of alternatives and help those who want to live differently. I feel it is the responsibility of the larger society a subsociety is part of to supply that possibility.
Now, in some case I feel that more direct action may be needed. Like in a village where it\'s normal to kill girl babies or a family where rape is considered normal (yes, they exist). There you need a hard hand AND information.
Hope I managed to get across what I tried to say.
Bye, Ming-Hua
(Hops of the soapbox and goes in search of a drink to ease the throat).
The problem with that is that culture will tell you what\'s wrong and what\'s right. I can well imagine that the couple comes from a village where society considers it normal to be abusive to your wife. They may not understand at all why they are in court, while the reason for that is that a larger society that their society is part of (the country) does consider it to be wrong.
This will only happen when they have had exposure to different ways of living. If they have the chance and courage to think about that they will be able to make choices and it becomes much more than before their responsibility. In that respect I do hope that the sentence will not just mean punishment but also education. Because it will not really change anything otherwise.
For us this may be harder to understand since all of us have had exposure to different cultures and lives through TV, internet, travels, etc. Because of that we have many more choices if it comes to values in life. I feel we are much more personally responsible for our actions than that couple. If I would be that man I should be much more punished since I knew there were alternatives but still made the choice of doing something that it consider wrong by my own values and those of the society I\'m in.
Should societies like that be changed? Hard to say. They would actually have to make the choice themselves. So best thing is to inform them. And that\'s what you see volunteers and agencies doing. They tell people of alternatives and help those who want to live differently. I feel it is the responsibility of the larger society a subsociety is part of to supply that possibility.
Now, in some case I feel that more direct action may be needed. Like in a village where it\'s normal to kill girl babies or a family where rape is considered normal (yes, they exist). There you need a hard hand AND information.
Hope I managed to get across what I tried to say.
Bye, Ming-Hua
(Hops of the soapbox and goes in search of a drink to ease the throat).
vincegamer
Active member
I agree that it is outside our real ability to lay judgment upon a culture different from our own because our own judgment is based on the structures of our own culture.
We CAN judge behavior though, and must. Our minds make us choose \"right\" from \"wrong.\" Therefore, we condemn a culture that promotes what we see as wrong. If we thought about it, this we would also perceive as wrong since it\'s not the culture, but one aspect of how that culture is carried out that we find wrong.
Thus, I base my decisions on what I think brings the greatest benefit or the least harm, and I condemn spousal abuse or domestic violence. I think what that man did was wrong. I think a society that promotes that needs to change. That is why I found it okay to judge the Taliban (the abuse of women and the destruction of art and artifacts).
Does \"western\" culture have problems? You betcha. It needs change as well. If I were not permitted to judge it then I could never work to improve it.
We CAN judge behavior though, and must. Our minds make us choose \"right\" from \"wrong.\" Therefore, we condemn a culture that promotes what we see as wrong. If we thought about it, this we would also perceive as wrong since it\'s not the culture, but one aspect of how that culture is carried out that we find wrong.
Thus, I base my decisions on what I think brings the greatest benefit or the least harm, and I condemn spousal abuse or domestic violence. I think what that man did was wrong. I think a society that promotes that needs to change. That is why I found it okay to judge the Taliban (the abuse of women and the destruction of art and artifacts).
Does \"western\" culture have problems? You betcha. It needs change as well. If I were not permitted to judge it then I could never work to improve it.
Anyone here has read the Da Vinci Code?
It\'s a rather entertainig read, and the author does have some very interesting points about the role western culture has imposed on women.
Basically, there\'s talk that the Bible as we know it was produced as the result of the Nicaea Council, sometimes around the year 400 A.D.. It is said that in that Council, there was a selective editing of the gospels to adjust to the political/economical agenda of the ruling Emperor (who, himself, wasn\'t a christian, but regardless, went on and made Christianism the official religion of the empire).
Basically, all practices that remained of the older Goddess worship were deemed anathema, and the political power of women was erased with a swift stroke. Anybody that chose not to heed the ruling of the council was deemed a heretic and dispensed with.
I feel curious about the way Judaism doesn\'t seem (to my extremely limited knowledge) to condone male dominance, but then again, I rely upon you lot to enlighten me regarding this subject.
It\'s a rather entertainig read, and the author does have some very interesting points about the role western culture has imposed on women.
Basically, there\'s talk that the Bible as we know it was produced as the result of the Nicaea Council, sometimes around the year 400 A.D.. It is said that in that Council, there was a selective editing of the gospels to adjust to the political/economical agenda of the ruling Emperor (who, himself, wasn\'t a christian, but regardless, went on and made Christianism the official religion of the empire).
Basically, all practices that remained of the older Goddess worship were deemed anathema, and the political power of women was erased with a swift stroke. Anybody that chose not to heed the ruling of the council was deemed a heretic and dispensed with.
I feel curious about the way Judaism doesn\'t seem (to my extremely limited knowledge) to condone male dominance, but then again, I rely upon you lot to enlighten me regarding this subject.
T
t_haye2
Guest
read and loved it, and have lent it to Avicenna who has exactly aweek to read it, because he will hav eto give it back to me at games day!(ok, i can live without the book, but i\'m not capable of existing without my monthly dogma fix)
the grail theory has been widely known for a long time, and is defenitely not mr\' brown\'s idea, although he does spin a good yarn around it
the grail theory has been widely known for a long time, and is defenitely not mr\' brown\'s idea, although he does spin a good yarn around it
Haven\'t read the Davinci Code yet
But I find it laughable that the author purports that the Council of Nicaea got rid of goddess worship, when you consider the medieval cult of Mary. It is important to remember that the Davinci Code is a work of fiction. The cannonical Bible that exists today was written, as archeological record has proved, by 200 AD, and therefore, well before the Nicaean Council. All the Nicaean Council determined was what the cannon would be. It could be argued, I suppose that some books about Mary as a god-mother, were left out, but where did they go? We have record of other books of apocrypha that were left out, such as the gospel of Peter.
Anyway, perviously were placed some snippets from the Bible that I wanted to elaborate on:
Timothy: This section is largely anomylous to me. I confess I don\'t really know what is going on, but it seems to me to be more an admonition against letting women speak in church while they are being taught, though I could be mistaken. I certainly don\'t see anywhere that even implies that a husband has the right to beat his wife. ???
Ephesians: I hate it when a biblical thought or statement is clipped short to serve a purpose. So I have given a more complete section of this text here:
Ephesians
5:22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the assembly, being himself the savior of the body. 5:24 But as the assembly is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their own husbands in everything.
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it; 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, 5:27 that he might present the assembly to himself gloriously, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 5:28 Even so husbands also ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. 5:29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord also does the assembly; 5:30 because we are members of his body, of his flesh and bones. 5:31 \"For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will be joined to his wife. The two will become one flesh.\"* 5:32 This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly. 5:33 Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
As you can see, the point is that wives and husbands have different roles, but are very much in need of each other. But even the snippet that was given before does not condone spouse abuse.
Corinthians: Here is another more extended version of the same section:
11:8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 11:9 for neither was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 11:10 For this cause the woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels.
11:11 Nevertheless, neither is the woman independent of the man, nor the man independent of the woman, in the Lord. 11:12 For as woman came from man, so a man also comes through a woman; but all things are from God. 11:13 Judge for yourselves...
I don\'t go on here because this section is largely about how a woman and a man should wear their hair, which, in my interpretation, is ultimately left up to the individual, but certainly not about whether a man can beat his wife.
I challenge anyone to find a section of the Bible that condones spouse abuse.
barkel
But I find it laughable that the author purports that the Council of Nicaea got rid of goddess worship, when you consider the medieval cult of Mary. It is important to remember that the Davinci Code is a work of fiction. The cannonical Bible that exists today was written, as archeological record has proved, by 200 AD, and therefore, well before the Nicaean Council. All the Nicaean Council determined was what the cannon would be. It could be argued, I suppose that some books about Mary as a god-mother, were left out, but where did they go? We have record of other books of apocrypha that were left out, such as the gospel of Peter.
Anyway, perviously were placed some snippets from the Bible that I wanted to elaborate on:
Timothy: This section is largely anomylous to me. I confess I don\'t really know what is going on, but it seems to me to be more an admonition against letting women speak in church while they are being taught, though I could be mistaken. I certainly don\'t see anywhere that even implies that a husband has the right to beat his wife. ???
Ephesians: I hate it when a biblical thought or statement is clipped short to serve a purpose. So I have given a more complete section of this text here:
Ephesians
5:22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the assembly, being himself the savior of the body. 5:24 But as the assembly is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their own husbands in everything.
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it; 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, 5:27 that he might present the assembly to himself gloriously, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 5:28 Even so husbands also ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself. 5:29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourishes and cherishes it, even as the Lord also does the assembly; 5:30 because we are members of his body, of his flesh and bones. 5:31 \"For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will be joined to his wife. The two will become one flesh.\"* 5:32 This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and of the assembly. 5:33 Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
As you can see, the point is that wives and husbands have different roles, but are very much in need of each other. But even the snippet that was given before does not condone spouse abuse.
Corinthians: Here is another more extended version of the same section:
11:8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 11:9 for neither was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 11:10 For this cause the woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels.
11:11 Nevertheless, neither is the woman independent of the man, nor the man independent of the woman, in the Lord. 11:12 For as woman came from man, so a man also comes through a woman; but all things are from God. 11:13 Judge for yourselves...
I don\'t go on here because this section is largely about how a woman and a man should wear their hair, which, in my interpretation, is ultimately left up to the individual, but certainly not about whether a man can beat his wife.
I challenge anyone to find a section of the Bible that condones spouse abuse.
barkel
Sand Rat
New member
Hate to disagree with you here astonia but it goes beyond a need for education. The culture over here needs to be forcefully dragged from the ninth century where it is into the 21st - you would not believe some of the things that one sees in the Middle East, and education is not enough to make a change, in my opinion.
Keep up the good work!
This has been an entertaining and enlightening thread. I myself will not chime in as I have a strict rule of trying not to discuss religion or politics. And discussing a culture invariably includes one if not both.
So, Tammy, you recommend the \"Da Vinci Code?\" I\'ve been tempted to read it, but not being into religion am wondering if alot of it would be beyond me. Does it have alot of specific references that you\'d not understand if you weren\'t religious?
This has been an entertaining and enlightening thread. I myself will not chime in as I have a strict rule of trying not to discuss religion or politics. And discussing a culture invariably includes one if not both.
So, Tammy, you recommend the \"Da Vinci Code?\" I\'ve been tempted to read it, but not being into religion am wondering if alot of it would be beyond me. Does it have alot of specific references that you\'d not understand if you weren\'t religious?
Sand Rat
New member
Ok, rant on -
First off, yes, western culture is not perfect. However, by and large, western culture sets an Ideal of Behaviour which is broadcast to all and sundry as just that - the way one should treat all those one comes across, not just those of ones select religious, ethnic, insert name here group. Yes, we have a long way to go in these areas folks, but look at where we have come from - forty years ago, in my home state, I could not have married my wife legally, because of her ethnicity. Twenty years ago, outside of Austin and a couple of other big cities, we would have been shunned and treated like sinners of some sort for crossing that line. Today, except for a few die hards, no one really comments one way or another. But to get there, it took time, it took that Ideal of Behaviour, and it took the ability of western culture to say that its not perfect and it needs to change.
Oddly enough, I\'m an anthropologist by training, but I do not value all cultures equally - I never believed that all cultures are equally valuable, and probably never will - any culture that puts a persons worth as lower than anothers needs work, not just western culture. The thing is most Middle Eastern cultures do not see anything wrong with what they are doing - where most western cultures see the behaviour as wrong and try to correct it.
First off, yes, western culture is not perfect. However, by and large, western culture sets an Ideal of Behaviour which is broadcast to all and sundry as just that - the way one should treat all those one comes across, not just those of ones select religious, ethnic, insert name here group. Yes, we have a long way to go in these areas folks, but look at where we have come from - forty years ago, in my home state, I could not have married my wife legally, because of her ethnicity. Twenty years ago, outside of Austin and a couple of other big cities, we would have been shunned and treated like sinners of some sort for crossing that line. Today, except for a few die hards, no one really comments one way or another. But to get there, it took time, it took that Ideal of Behaviour, and it took the ability of western culture to say that its not perfect and it needs to change.
Oddly enough, I\'m an anthropologist by training, but I do not value all cultures equally - I never believed that all cultures are equally valuable, and probably never will - any culture that puts a persons worth as lower than anothers needs work, not just western culture. The thing is most Middle Eastern cultures do not see anything wrong with what they are doing - where most western cultures see the behaviour as wrong and try to correct it.
T
t_haye2
Guest
@ Zora: The book is simply about the grail theory, the organisations that seek to either protect the grail, or destroy it. although you have to understand that the grail isn\'t a cup in these theories..... (It\'s not a supernatural book, there are no visitations of angels and shiney lights btw)
although the core of the story is about this, it explores the religious and pagan symbolism used by many renaissance artists and dan Brown uses that to tell a very good tale about art, world conspiracies and faith. It\'s a very good read, with some awesome scenes in Paris, car chases, mad religious zealot murderers and every chapter ends in a cliff hanger. You need as much understanding of religion to enjoy the book as you do to watch Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. if you know a littlebit about art history, the divine proportion, anagrams and the story of the grail and jezus, even better, but everything is explained as you read...in true american story telling fashion some cynics might say... i read it in two days, it\'s good....
@ airhead: He clasifies himself as a believer in god and what it stands for to believe in god....and to be honest(can of worms, i know), the main non-christian standpoint he takes is that jezus was a man, with all the trappings of being a man but for that no less holy. This is something I myself believe, that jezus was not a divine being, just a man with some good ideas, who stood up against the oppression and and injustice caused to his people, in a very similar vein as someone like Gandhi has done in our own time, and who knows, in 2000 years, man will worship him as the son of god...and who knows, they might well be right.
i\'d love to have an in-debth descussion about the book( and religion)with you, but don\'t want to give the plot away for zora, or anybody else As i stated in an older thread, i am by no means a christian, although, as also stated, the Carpenter had some damn good ideas...
I really have to stop watching dogma...thank goodness it\'s at peter\'s house
(It\'s not a supernatural book, there are no visitations of angels and shiney lights btw)although the core of the story is about this, it explores the religious and pagan symbolism used by many renaissance artists and dan Brown uses that to tell a very good tale about art, world conspiracies and faith. It\'s a very good read, with some awesome scenes in Paris, car chases, mad religious zealot murderers and every chapter ends in a cliff hanger. You need as much understanding of religion to enjoy the book as you do to watch Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. if you know a littlebit about art history, the divine proportion, anagrams and the story of the grail and jezus, even better, but everything is explained as you read...in true american story telling fashion some cynics might say...
i read it in two days, it\'s good....@ airhead: He clasifies himself as a believer in god and what it stands for to believe in god....and to be honest(can of worms, i know), the main non-christian standpoint he takes is that jezus was a man, with all the trappings of being a man but for that no less holy. This is something I myself believe, that jezus was not a divine being, just a man with some good ideas, who stood up against the oppression and and injustice caused to his people, in a very similar vein as someone like Gandhi has done in our own time, and who knows, in 2000 years, man will worship him as the son of god...and who knows, they might well be right.
i\'d love to have an in-debth descussion about the book( and religion)with you, but don\'t want to give the plot away for zora, or anybody else
As i stated in an older thread, i am by no means a christian, although, as also stated, the Carpenter had some damn good ideas...I really have to stop watching dogma...thank goodness it\'s at peter\'s house
You mean she was a man?,
Oh, wait, a quick search for \"ethnicity\" in Encarta, and...
Oooops.
My bad.
Anyways, I am not sure how could anybody set a \"value\" on a culture.
Everybody belongs to one, and any judgement about a culture\'s value would be necessarily biased.
@ Barkel.- Dude, their intention was to curt the female\'s to significant political power. In practice, they knew they had to defang the whole Goddess worship, and opted for \"absorbing\" it.
The catholic view of Virgin Mary was that she was no ordinary woman, but the Mother of God, and therefore, the ideal women should strive to achieve, were they not such a sinful lot.
Here, in Mexico, Mary is as big as The Son, but just because the spanish missionaries had a really rough time trying to convince people to convert otherwise.
vincegamer
Active member
Heretics! Yer all a bunch of Heretics!
Ebionetics! Yeah, that\'s right, I said it. Ya sound like Ebionetics to me.
Or you could be Artemonites....
(okay, just an excuse to show off my knowledge of third century christian heresies it\'s never been good for anyting else.)
Ebionetics! Yeah, that\'s right, I said it. Ya sound like Ebionetics to me.
Or you could be Artemonites....
(okay, just an excuse to show off my knowledge of third century christian heresies
it\'s never been good for anyting else.)