Speaking of thorny issues

[Mr.S.Marbo]

I don\'t have a science background but one thing strikes me as odd and perhaps someone could put me straight. The arguments that strike me as odd are as follows.

Mars is heating up and therefore as there are no humans there we can assume that increasing / changing temperatures on planets are unavoidable and not to do with our behaviour. Secondly climate on the earth has varied over time before we as humans were even on the scene and therefore again climate change is just what happens and our behaviour can\'t really change it (we are too insignificant?).

Maybe I am missing something here but I thought science was about control groups and such? You try and isolate one factor and see if that factor is influencing the behaviour or whatever you are looking at. The above arguments don\'t seem to be rigorous enough. With the Mars argument you have removed humans from the amount of factors that could influence climate change but you have added in a ton of other factors.

The equivalent of these arguments to me would be someone saying something like smoking cannot cause cancer because we can clearly observe that non smokers get cancer too. It is true that non smokers get cancer but that doesn\'t mean that therefore smoking doesn\'t increase your chances of getting cancer.

Just because we can see temperature and climate changing on planets without anything to do with us doesn\'t itself prove that we are not currently accelerating climate change with our own behaviour.

 

[farseerlum]

Mr. s. marbo you have in fact put your finger on the entirety of the problem.

without controls science can only make assuption based on observed data.

you then give us a great example of an assuption based on observed data. here is another. just because temperature varies on earth it doesn\'t follow that man caused it.

mars has to have a mathmatical correlation to be usable as evidence either way. much the same way as we need mathmatical correlation to tie us to temperature variation here on earth. we have far more geological evidence than human evidence though, leaving us with some facts and some assuptions.

fact. earths temperature has changed and is always in fluctuation. often coinciding with biological data.
assuption. humans have caused the latest variations.

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Braveheart712
...this whole global warming non-crisis is a bunch of crap.

Did it take an awful lot of reading to come to that expert conclusion?

I don\'t understand what the problem is. Fossil fuel is going to run out at some point. Extinction threatens thousands upon thousands of lifeforms. We have deforested huge swathes of the planet. The toxins and gases we emit into the atmosphere are responsible for numerous health problems...

I\'m no tree-hugger but there are loads of reasons to try to tidy up our act. I think we\'ve shat on our own doorstep for long enough.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie
I\'m no tree-hugger but there are loads of reasons to try to tidy up our act. I think we\'ve shat on our own doorstep for long enough.

I have to say I totally agree with this assessment. On one hand, I don\'t completely believe the \'the sky is falling\' crowd...but what harm would it be for us to be good stewards of the land? Keeping our house in order only makes sense.

 

[Evil Dave]

I personally don\'t care about \"Global Warming.\" I have no kids and will have none so what happens to the human race after I and my wife are gone really doesn\'t bother me all that much.

What I do care about is hypocrisy, about people talking the talk but not walking the walk.
Want to lessen your impact? Move out of the cities, buy some land, plant trees, live an environmentally minimalist existence.
Don\'t raise my taxes because many can\'t and won\'t put their money where their mouths are.
That\'s the whole problem I see with this, so many are so willing to dictate what others can or should do without the willingness to do their part.

 

[funnymouth]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
I personally don\'t care about \"Global Warming.\" I have no kids and will have none so what happens to the human race after I and my wife are gone really doesn\'t bother me all that much.
What I do care about is hypocrisy, about people talking the talk but not walking the walk.
Want to lessen your impact? Move out of the cities, buy some land, plant trees, live an environmentally minimalist existence.
Don\'t raise my taxes because many can\'t and won\'t put their money where their mouths are.
That\'s the whole problem I see with this, so many are so willing to dictate what others can or should do without the willingness to do their part.

good advice, but slightly flawed. the challenge is that the problems presented cant be entirely solved via individual changes; we need to do some things as a collective (such as regulating industial and commercial waste). You may not care about the rest of humanity, but we still need your help. you are completely right though, we need to start at home. nearly every measure of waste/pollution that we use has been on the rise, by the household. but still, progress is being made, this thread is evidence of that. awareness is growing, and even the commercial sector is catching on.

second - i doubt your conviction. surely there are people you care about (relatives, friends). do you only care about them superficially, if they are within earshot, or is it genuine, unconditional compassion? if it is, maybe you should consider their children. even if its true, you should know that i do care, about YOU, and your life. :redface:

\"we belive in nothing, lebowski.\"

here is a good link for \"global warming\" info in a public friendly format (ugh)
union of concerned scientists
for some science, take a look at the science section under the \"global warming\" tab.
they even list the skeptics, if you\'re interested
skeptic organizations

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
I personally don\'t care about \"Global Warming.\" I have no kids and will have none so what happens to the human race after I and my wife are gone really doesn\'t bother me all that much.

What I do care about is hypocrisy, about people talking the talk but not walking the walk.
Want to lessen your impact? Move out of the cities, buy some land, plant trees, live an environmentally minimalist existence.
Don\'t raise my taxes because many can\'t and won\'t put their money where their mouths are.
That\'s the whole problem I see with this, so many are so willing to dictate what others can or should do without the willingness to do their part.

And many are.....don\'t rely on anecdotal evidence to shape your worl view. The vast majority of the people I know who accept the science of climate change actually live in the environment, and are making a lot of personal sacrifices to combat it. Just as I\'m sure there is a lot of hypocrisy from some city-dwelling \"environmentalists.\" From my experience, the people who actually live on the land care about the land. You seem to have had different experiences. Neither of us should let that shape our opinions.

And hypocrisy has no bearing on the science, either way.

 

[funnymouth]

Originally posted by supervike

Originally posted by Spacemunkie
I\'m no tree-hugger but there are loads of reasons to try to tidy up our act. I think we\'ve shat on our own doorstep for long enough.

I have to say I totally agree with this assessment. On one hand, I don\'t completely believe the \'the sky is falling\' crowd...but what harm would it be for us to be good stewards of the land? Keeping our house in order only makes sense.

well said, on both counts

 

[Evil Dave]

Another problem I have with Global Warming are the extreme solutions for infinitesimal results.
Already here, with the increase of ethanol (corn based) we\'ve seen an increase in the price of food corn, as well as chicken and eggs (which are fed corn).
The best way to get people involved would to make green power more economical as well as environmental.
A couple of examples that come to my mind are the exact opposite.
Solar Power: I\'ve actually looked into this and to get myself off the grid, the panels alone would cost around $200,000, that\'s not counting the Batteries Packs (which are another HUGE environmental hazard), nor the cost of maintenance, or even the true feasibility of it here in hurricane alley.
I pay around $90-$120 in electricity per month.
So economically it is wiser for me to get electricity from the grid as my payments would not be below what they are now ( in fact, even if they were at the same price it would take me approximately 138 years to pay it off, not counting interest, I seriously don\'t plan on living that long.)
Those Mercury vapor light bulbs that California is trying to push into law also seems a bit economically silly. I\'ve been told each bulb comes to around $4 -$6 dollars per bulb. Ok, not too bad, but here\'s the kicker, Mercury is a highly dangerous contaminant, and must be disposed of safely.
From what I\'ve heard, you must actually bring them to a facility to be disposed of.
So, the bulbs cost more, are very hazardous (if broken), cannot be thrown away conventionally and actually make you use gasoline to get in your vehicle to drive to a facility to dispose of them?
The Prius Hybrid car though, is one of my favorites, It has absolutely no use to me as I do maybe 15% of my driving in the city, and it simply can\'t do the things I need a vehicle to do. It costs far more than a conventional Internal combustion car, so far has very few mechanics that are willing to work on them, and has a battery(Hazardous) that must be replaced every year or two, which word of mouth costs around $2000.
We averaged it up once and the Prius would only be economically suitable if the price of gasoline went up to $10 a gallon.
My truck is paid off, I pay $100 dollars a month in gas, $80 dollars a month in insurance.
There is no green vehicle that can do the things my truck can do and cost under $180 a month. None.

Aside from economics the issue that also bothers me is Governmental Interference, how far are you willing to let it go.
Are we talking stricter emissions controls, or artificially raising the price of gasoline to get more people off the streets? Are we talking of the laws that I read are trying to be pushed in England, in which a government agency can walk into your home and fine you if they see any \"anti-environmental behavior\"?
Are we talking governmental control of what we must drive, how much power we must use, what we must eat?
Screw that crap, I\'d rather the entire human race die off than live like sheep under an elite governmental control.

edit: @funnymouth: You ask if a tax is too much to ask, are we that greedy?
I ask you this in return.
Is it too much to ask that our government representatives actually be held accountable for how they spend our money?
Is it too much to ask that they live as they preach that we should live, and if they have the ability, will require us to live?
Is it too much to ask that they cut the pork and actually spend the money as it was intended?
Do we need new taxes when they apparently have billions (if not trillions) of our hard earned dollars to spend on pet projects?
The Pork alone in the latest Democrat attempt to force a timetable in Iraq could replant an entire rain forest, chop it down and replant it.

These are not the people I trust to come up with a fair or just or even reasonable tax, since all they have done is tax, tax, tax, and spend, spend, spend, with very little to show for it. We do not want these people (either party) to have this kind of control.

edit edit: To give an idea of a what a billion dollars is:

Here is a million:
$1,000,000.00

Here is how many million it takes to equal $1 Billion:

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Sub total= 100,000,000 (we are now at one-hundred million. Let\'s continue)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 200,000,000 (we are now at two-hundred million. Whew, on we go.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 300,000,000 (Three hundred million...>>>>>>>>> )
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 400,000,000 (Four-hundred million)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 500,000,000 (Five-hundred million. Half way there.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 600,000,000 (Six hundred million... come on stick with me here.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 700,000,000 (Seven-hundred million...deep breath)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 800,000,000 (Eight-hundred million)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Sub total= 900,000,000 (900-hundred million done.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Total= 1,000,000,000
Ah! $1 Billion... one-thousand million is a billion.

Now, multiply this by 20 and that is the pork on one bill alone.

So in one bill our government, especially the Democrats, could have made 20 thousand families living in poverty, millionaires with a vote, or could have given all our homeless enough meals for a week, perhaps a month, or even longer, but instead they waste it on their pet projects.
Bah, party of the people.
They cannot even take care of issues RIGHT NOW that only require money, money that they have at their disposal, and you really expect me to believe that they will do something about something no one in this generation or the next or even the next will even notice?
There are hundreds of thousands of things they could be doing RIGHT NOW towards our environment, without even taxing us more and they are not, unless it is showy, to show what \"Big Environmentalists\" they are, to get the votes.
So I ask again, should I be taxed more?

 

[darthfoley]

Pork spam! I always wondered what was in that stuff.

As for Mars warming...didn\'t we recently start landing equipment and such up there for scientific study? Maybe those are doing it.

(tongue firmly in cheek here, have a beer all) :beer:

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

You ask if a tax is too much to ask, are we that greedy?
I ask you this in return.
Is it too much to ask that our government representatives actually be held accountable for how they spend our money?
Is it too much to ask that they live as they preach that we should live, and if they have the ability, will require us to live?
Is it too much to ask that they cut the pork and actually spend the money as it was intended?

...These are not the people I trust to come up with a fair or just or even reasonable tax, since all they have done is tax, tax, tax, and spend, spend, spend, with very little to show for it. We do not want these people (either party) to have this kind of control.

edit edit: To give an idea of a what a billion dollars is:

Here is a million:
$1,000,000.00

Here is how many million it takes to equal $1 Billion:

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Sub total= 100,000,000 (we are now at one-hundred million. Let\'s continue)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 200,000,000 (we are now at two-hundred million. Whew, on we go.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 300,000,000 (Three hundred million...>>>>>>>>> )
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 400,000,000 (Four-hundred million)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 500,000,000 (Five-hundred million. Half way there.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 600,000,000 (Six hundred million... come on stick with me here.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 700,000,000 (Seven-hundred million...deep breath)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00


Sub total= 800,000,000 (Eight-hundred million)

$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Sub total= 900,000,000 (900-hundred million done.)
$1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00 +1,000,000.00

Total= 1,000,000,000
Ah! $1 Billion... one-thousand million is a billion.

Now, multiply this by 20 and that is the pork on one bill alone.

Or you could try multiplying that total by ONE or TWO MILLION to get the true figure that war in the Middle East will cost the US.

Makes the amount spent on the environment seem like a bit of a piss in the ocean doesn\'t it?

Moan about taxes going through the roof by all means. Just make sure you blame the correct culprits.

 

[Evil Dave]

The problem is Spacemunkie is they\'re not raising taxes for the war or even suggesting it. In fact they even cut taxes and got record revenue. Google the Laffer curve.
They are however suggesting a \"Carbon Tax\".

Do you honestly think any of that money spent on the war would have actually been spent on the environment or the people? Just like the Billions of dollars in aid we send every time there is a disaster actually gets to the people affected? Or the billions we send in aid to all these countries goes straight to the people and not straight into their corrupt governments back pockets?

Do you actually think any money collected by a carbon tax would actually go towards the environment?

Do you think that any UN based Global Warming initiative would not prove just a futile, just as corrupt, and basically just as useless as their Oil for Food, or their \"efforts\" in Darfur, or the myriad other failed things they\'ve tried to get involved in?

As I said they can\'t even spend the money on fixing real problems that are occurring right now that we see every day all around us, relatively easy problems, comparatively speaking. Do you really, truly believe they will spend it on a problem none of them or us will be around to see?
Do you honestly believe that Pelosi, Murtha, Clinton, Kennedy, Gore, or any of them give a flying f@%k about the environment?
Or about getting re-elected?
Jesus, they can\'t even fix our f@&king Social Security, and that is very soon about to bite us in the ass, and they\'ve had decades.

But the solution will be to raise taxes, not cut out frivolous spending.

If you truly believe that Global Warming is happening, then the liberal big government full of bureaucracy, corruption and pork is not the way to combat it.
A more conservative cutting back is needed.
The people will not get behind new taxes, they will back less frivolous spending and seeing their existing taxes put to good use.
Most non believers won\'t even care how the government spends those tax dollars as long as their taxes do not increase. Cutting the pork is the easiest, most logical way to do this.

And Spacemunkie, I\'ll ask you the same question I asked funnymouth.
Do you live in a city? Do you own land? What are you actually doing for the environment?
Are you walking more? Well, that would mean you only take from the environment less than some, but what about those of us who actually own land, who actually leave it as pristine as possible, we\'re actually putting more INTO the environment by taking out CO2 and producing oxygen, those of us who believe in driving used vehicles for 15 years at a time, saving more energy and doing more by simply not wasting the energy, materials and putting out the pollutants that go into making new \"environmentally clean vehicles\" every few years, not leaving another rusted hulk or vehicle that get recycled into other materials wasting even more energy.

What about people like that, people like me, who actually do more than you urban types?
Should I get taxed more because I\'m an \"American\" even though I choose to live environmentally friendly without actually believing in \"Global Warming\", but rather because I choose too?
Should I get reimbursed for doing more than my fair share? You can send me a check for using my oxygen.

Or should you, who still takes more than I from the environment, pay more?

Do you really want fair or do you just want to blame someone else?

See, for me it\'s not the issue of \"Global Warming\", it\'s the preachy hypocrisy of it.
You city dwellers, who really want to combat \"Global Warming\", come move to the country. Start conserving the land, start helping rather than merely taking less, then pointing fingers. We non-believers might actually start taking you seriously then, plus I could use the neighbors, my nearest one is half a mile away.lol

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

And Spacemunkie, I\'ll ask you the same question I asked funnymouth.
Do you live in a city? Do you own land? What are you actually doing for the environment?

I live near a city. What\'s your point? Without cities your country wouldn\'t be what it is today.

I own a house. It has about 25 square metres of concrete at the rear. Land and property is an extremely expensive commodity over here. Most young people can\'t even afford to buy a tiny house, let alone a swathe of land to plant trees on.

It\'s pretty pompous suggesting that everyone should go out and by land to offset their carbon footprint. I doubt there\'s enough land anyway. There certainly won\'t be once the US gets it\'s mits into ethanol to power cars....

Let\'s put it another way: should those who own enough land get away without paying these taxes? Because I\'ll guarantee that the vast majority of these people will (in this country at least) be driving around in 4 litre 4x4s, own several cars and have houses that cost a fortune to keep warm and lit.

What do I do for the environment? Recycle everything I can. Drive a car with a 1.2 litre engine. I don\'t fly all over the world. I don\'t burn an excessive amount of electricity or gas. When I eventually leave, I fully intend to generate as much of my own power as I can through solar panels and wind turbines (the NZ government is quite a forward thinking one where the environment is concerned).

In short, I do what I can within the confines of my economic position.

Point is, governments have a responsibility to try to clean their acts up too. They need money for that. Perhaps you should be asking for all that cash being burnt in the Gulf to be used in more constructive ways if you don\'t want to pay more taxes.

 

[matty1001]

I think even just assuming that people that live in an urban area have a large carbon footprint, or don\'t do as much to help as in a rural area.

I live in a flat right in a city center with my dad. We don\'t have a car (no-one in my family does) but we have 6 bikes, use public transport when its to far to walk or can\'t use the bikes.
Over the past 18 month we have turned the central heating on once or twice, and that was just to dry some clothes, our gas and electric bill combined is about £5 per week, considereably smaller than alot of households. We recycle all plastics and papers. Buy fresh foods from the shops which were locally grown (or as best as we can)

So just because you have a patch of rural land does not means you are helping more than some people living in urban areas.

 

[paintingploddy]

@ Spacemunkie - Don\'t do it. You can\'t become a ossessed: KIWI!

@ Evildave - Uhh if all the urban dwellers in the world went for their slice of countryside I think it would make the problem worse. Us occupying our small block close to work, utilising public transport/bike/footpower and trying not to be wasteful will accomplish more than building a new house in the backblocks, driving to work every day and thumping my chest proclaiming my carbon neutrality.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by matty1001
I think even just assuming that people that live in an urban area have a large carbon footprint, or don\'t do as much to help as in a rural area.

Sorry dude, if you believe that CO2 is the problem, if you are putting in any CO2 you are still part of the problem, by simply breathing, the exchange of Oxygen to CO2, you are contributing.
Only those who own earth\'s natural scrubbers, plantlife, shrubbery, trees can make any true claims to Carbon Neutrality.
It\'s just a natural fact that those who own more land generally have more plantlife, so that a person with a large enough plot of acreage could still drive a 4x4 back and forth to work and maintain a carbon negativity, as in scrubbing more carbon than they produce. This is supposedly how Al Gore\'s company works, just they plant the trees for you.

Thereby while producing less CO2 may be a good thing, you are still producing it. Scrubbing out more than you actually use is by far better. A claim that most urban dwellers cannot make.

If it\'ll make you feel better plant a lot of ferns. They are supposed to be excellent scrubbers, and work well in a potted environment.

 

[matty1001]

Well arn\'t you fantastic with your land then, neutralising all our urban emissions.

The point is I do my best to lower my footprint in the situation I am in. I can\'t just pack up and get a house in the country, it costs a hell of a lot todo that over here. But you seem to thing you are doing better because you own trees and such, you are only doing your best, as am I.

 

[lono]

Even though I live in the city I agree with Evil Dave.

This is why I hold my breath as often as possible, to counter the terribly selfish effect that my evil city abiding existance has on the environment. I also don\'t intend to create any ofspring, so they won\'t use any precious CO2 whilst living in the city, and with a bit of luck us city dwellers will eventually die out, leaving the fair country dwellers to replenish the atmosphere with healthy plant breath. I also curse my living situation daily, and flagellate myself regularly for not growing a field of plants!

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie
It\'s pretty pompous suggesting that everyone should go out and by land to offset their carbon footprint.

Maybe, but I\'d say it\'s also pretty pompous to tell another country how they should spend their taxes, especially when we may have a choice in who gets elected but no guarantee that they will actually spend the money on what they say they will once they get into office.

My solution is scientifically feasible, as well as economically feasible if you\'re willing to work at it. It\'s a personal commitment.

Your solution is to throw money to the government and hope that they actually do what they say they will do with the money, a feat that history shows us has rarely if ever been done well. That\'s just passing the buck.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by matty1001
Well arn\'t you fantastic with your land then, neutralising all our urban emissions.

The point is I do my best to lower my footprint in the situation I am in. I can\'t just pack up and get a house in the country, it costs a hell of a lot todo that over here. But you seem to thing you are doing better because you own trees and such, you are only doing your best, as am I.

Dude, I DON\"T BELIEVE GLOBAL WARMING IS MAN MADE. I believe it is a cycle.
Do what\'s good for you.
You can go burn a forest for all I care.

I am merely pointing out that there are those smug idividuals who like to point their fingers at everyone other than themselves. Quite a bit of America is still very heavily forested, and we don\'t exactly know how much scrubbing goes on and exactly how it occurs. So to point the finger squarely at America and take no blame yourself is merely lying to yourself. Last I checked the CO2 molecules weren\'t labeled \"From America with Love.\"
If it\'s man made it\'s a world problem, and the best solution is to what you can and hope for the best, because I\'ll put no trust in politicians to do it right.