Speaking of thorny issues

Evil Dave

New member
You see the problem here, Brimshack, is that you are looking at the whole Movement logically.
Despite our best intentions we are rarely logical creatures. Governments and Movements live and die more by the feelings of the people than by logic and numbers. Perception of the movement is the key.
While you may not judge others by their perceived representatives (Limbaugh, Falwell.) many, many others do, as was evidenced not a few weeks ago here upon the topic of Christianity, as is evidenced every time political discussion comes up on these boards. Hell, remember the stink over the Ann Coulter \"fag\" comment? She isn\'t even a representative of the Republican party.

I am not saying shut people like Gore up. (Gods, no, I believe in freedom of speech, so much that I believe hate speech laws are unconstitutional) I am saying to be more effective, you may wish to move away from the far radical position and towards a more moderate position. If it is perceived to be more moderate and less radical in affecting peoples lives, you will gain more support. Not having me on board hurts you not at all, since I already am doing what is perceived as needed by your movement, but you do need more support. This is not scape-goating, this is not blackmail, this is fact.
There are those who are doing what they can, but if mandated to do more than willing to do through radical measures, will turn like a wounded tiger on the movement.

In this particular situation I would say a grassroots movement would have far more results, than a government mandated solution.

With the pork example, I was trying to show a way the movement could be perceived as a good thing, going after corruption and pork and demanding that this be spent towards the environment could have a huge success as it would make many people happy, those that are tired of the corruption, and those for the environment.
Mandating new taxes, without cutting out what many see as a waste of their hard earned money, could lead to stiff resistance.

The perception now, among many, is that Global Warming is merely a reason to raise taxes, that will be wasted just like the trillions of other tax dollars have been.
 

Brimshack

New member
Dave, I do not expect a movement or any other collective social entity to behave logically. I do expect those with whom I converse (about a movement or otherwise) to maintain some standards of logical relevance, particularly if I know they are capable of doing so. You make a lot of good points, and I would not deny that. I have restricted my objections to fairly specific aspects of your posts, because I do think some of your arguments are particularly unhelpful.

Your last post bears only a tangential relationship to my initial objections, and I think we\'ve aired our views out enough for the day. So, I am content to move on at this point.

Goodnight,

Dan
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Brimshack
Dave, I do not expect a movement or any other collective social entity to behave logically. I do expect those with whom I converse (about a movement or otherwise) to maintain some standards of logical relevance, particularly if I know they are capable of doing so. You make a lot of good points, and I would not deny that. I have restricted my objections to fairly specific aspects of your posts, because I do think some of your arguments are particularly unhelpful.

Your last post bears only a tangential relationship to my initial objections, and I think we\'ve aired our views out enough for the day. So, I am content to move on at this point.

Goodnight,

Dan
Ah, but even then opinions are not always logical, then they would be facts.
When has opinion had anything to do with fact.lol
I am merely sharing how I perceive this topic, what my gut instinct, my living with the land, history and years of watching our governments is telling me.
Forgive me if I seem to lose tangibility or seem hostile. I am not a writer by choice or by talent, I\'m a talker. Most of my questions I seem to ask people directly are in fact rhetorical in nature. Some ideals and concepts I find hard to put down on paper or even the internet, but hey, nobody\'s perfect.

Anyway have a good night.
 

Brimshack

New member
Nah,

You\'re very articulate. Nothing but the highest standards will apply. :evil:

For my own part, I am a far cry short of pissed. Some criticisms just seem unfair to me. When that is the case, I try to explain why, sometimes with less clarity than others. Same as you, just weighing in based on personal experience and studies, etc. Suffice to say that my perception of the environmentalists I have known has not been the same as yours.

Lono posting that kid though man. I tell ya that guy really burns me up!

:p
 

funnymouth

Active member
Originally posted by Evil Dave
People calling themselves protesters killed hundreds of thousands by banning DDT\'s.
The wackos are the most vocal...

dude, DDT is BAD (many mosqitoes are now immune, it is a hormone mimicker (estrogen) that can remain in biological systems for decades, and it toxic to a wide variety of life, esp marine life, which people eat). in most countries with malaria problems its perfectly legal, though not used as frequently anymore because of the prevelence of resistant mosquitos.

i would hardly call rachel carson, winner of the presidential medal of freedom, a wacko.

DDT.jpg
looks like fun!

the 10 year thing is BS, and has no scientific basis (that i know of)
global climate change is more than just global warming. take a look at \"global dimming,\" seriously. it has some interesting implications.

soccer moms piss me of too (i think its mostly those stupid stickers they have that disply the variey of larvae they\'re packing)
 

frenchkid

New member
Dave, been reading state of fear recently ?

Just read it myself, quit a fun book, but a nice obvious propaganda. Just shows that Mr Chriton is, and will stay, a fiction author. I\'ll admit it did bring up some valide points though.
 

Evil Dave

New member
@funnymouth
An experiment if you please.
You say you have students, I have them here as well.
Do a little poll among your students on who Rachel Carson is, then do a poll on who Al Gore is, and the perceptions of each.
I\'d be willing to bet that far more people know who Gore is than Carson, I mean look, he\'s won Academy awards and is nominated for a Nobel Prize.

When people think of environmentalism and Global Warming they think of Al Gore, the man who invented the internet, the man who spends over $200,000 a year in electricity, the man who in his own movie showed a graph in which emissions were higher in the years he was in office as Vice President.
This does not help your cause.
It sucks, but this is who people associate it with.
 

Legacy Account

Active member
Originally posted by Beelzebrush

Well, I can\'t see the difference between a 4x4 and any other large engined car tbh. There\'s loads of cars with similar sized engines whose only purpose seems to be to go as fast as possible.

True. Which is why all engines over a certain size should get a hammering - just to be fair :D

However HUGE 4x4s have a number of other problems associated with them:

They block my view pulling out of junctions.
Due to their height and bulk they\'re lethal to pedestrians. This height is also dangerous for people in smaller vehicles as their crumple zones and impact protection are hit higher up.

TBH, there\'s little reason for many people to own one - they\'re never going to be using them off road or in anything like the conditions that a monster 4x4 would be any benefit. This especially applies to those huge \'bling\' monsters like Range Rovers and X5s. Bloody footballers wives....:D
 

funnymouth

Active member
Originally posted by Evil Dave
@funnymouth
An experiment if you please.
You say you have students, I have them here as well.
Do a little poll among your students on who Rachel Carson is, then do a poll on who Al Gore is, and the perceptions of each.
I\'d be willing to bet that far more people know who Gore is than Carson, I mean look, he\'s won Academy awards and is nominated for a Nobel Prize.

When people think of environmentalism and Global Warming they think of Al Gore, the man who invented the internet, the man who spends over $200,000 a year in electricity, the man who in his own movie showed a graph in which emissions were higher in the years he was in office as Vice President.
This does not help your cause.
It sucks, but this is who people associate it with.

a very good point.
 

lono

New member
I didn\'t know that Al Gore claimed to have taken the initiative in creating the internet. Did people really buy that when he said it? It\'s a pretty spectacular exageration to put it nicely!
 

Beelzebrush

Active member
Originally posted by Spacemunkie


However HUGE 4x4s have a number of other problems associated with them:

They block my view pulling out of junctions.
Due to their height and bulk they\'re lethal to pedestrians. This height is also dangerous for people in smaller vehicles as their crumple zones and impact protection are hit higher up.

That applies to vans, lorries, tractors, JCBs, etc too. Are these to be pilloried too?

Also, what happened to people having freedom of choice with regards to what they drive? Or have we moved so far down the path of being nannied that once rational peaople can no longer think without assistance and propaganda?

There\'s lots of reasonable reasons to own a functional vehicle like a 4x4... what about towing caravans, boats, trailers... what about living on a hill and wanting to get to work when it\'s snowy or icy etc... You may live off the beaten track and make occassional trips to the city... where\'s the problem?

You chose to drive a smaller vehicle, that\'s your choice... if other vehicles pose a threat, buy something safer perhaps.

Range Rovers are no more blingy than say a BMW, Audi or Mercedes... ban these too? Or is it because there is more urban acceptance with executive cars.
 

misterjustin

New member
Lots of stuff going on here and I\'ll admit up front that I didn\'t read the whole thread before posting. That said....

I am friends with two different navy officers. One is Canadian the other American. Both have served for more than twenty years and neither has met. Both of them have told me the same thing:

They can each clearly see changes in the water at sea.

Each has watched as ice has retreated - in some cases opening up whole new sea lanes.

Basic physics says that all of that water has gone in to the atmosphere -- and has to come down. This would explain increased storm activity and general mico climate shifts based on wateral dispersal over regions.

Neither of them makes any claims that people are responsible -- but both, having never met, describe the same problems and come to the same conclusion:

Climate change *is* happening. Whatever is causing it aside we as humans can affect some control over it -- if we stop bickering over *if* and *why* start looking at possible positive changes... good things will happen.
 

Bobinator

Member
Hooray for global warming, my garden really benefits from all the extra yearly warmth, my plants are loving all the extra co2 too. Since the planet is getting warmer the extra rain will be nice also, saves me getting the hose out in the summer. Hang on a sec, warmer AND wetter, God damn, in ten years I\'ll have my own jungle. Oh wait, from what I keep hearing about global warming if it gets to warm the gulf stream will turn its self off and plunge us into a new ice age, Hmmm.. ok I think we all have to start burning more fossil fuels right now to counter the global warming induced global freezing. Sod it all, I\'ll take whatever maybe coming, at least with a good freeze we\'ll get rid off a huge chunk of the homeless, as everybody knows they each pollute as much as a hundred homed people do each week, then again they could build their own homes like Eskimoes, Lol, they would live in \'loo\'s. Think of the all the fun you could have caving in their homes in night, the future looks pretty fine to me either way, rock on global warming.
 

Avelorn

Sven Jonsson
@bobinator: lollollol

Mm.. I like grapes. Our agriculutre will flourish!! Not only will we be able to grow new vegetables but the competition from other countries will drastically decrease when the effects of drought in other countries will be more apparent.

Saw a \"special\" on it actually just some days ago.

\"Well.. of course we don\'t want global warming.. but.. on the other hand...\"
 

Bobinator

Member
I never thought of that! Thanks for the heads up, I\'d best start planting stuff now, I\'m gonna be rich I tell ya, rich! all the bums are gonna work on my pine-apple plantation, I\'ll pay them in soap so they smell nice and set them to build me a huge richers house with doors and windows and stuff, then a few years down the line when they start bitchin\' on about the soap for work instead of money thing the big freeze will wipe them out and I\'ll be able to sit in my geo-thermal powered sauna and laugh. Its gonna be good, reeeely good.
 

laurence

Brushlover
Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Instead of seeing it as some sort of apocalyptic economy-destroyer, green energy could in fact prove to be a massive money spinner if US industry embraced it. The US should be at the forefront of developing new technologies and there are plenty of vast markets developing in places like India and China to send the stuff. It may be a way to keep the US economy afloat as these new economic super powers develop.

Perhaps it\'s just easier to continue making money out of selling weapons to the world.

Hi Spacemunkie, I think this is a great idea! Also, in regard to a comment you made about the New Zealand government and their forward-thinking approach, I can\'t agree with you more. In fact, my girlfriend and I plan on moving to NZ to live next year- and this is one big reasons why I\'m really looking forward to the move. Seems like a really good country!

Check this article out----> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6533169.stm

I think this relates to this topic. It\'s a crazy mixed up world! I really hope we sort it out. Generally speaking (please forgive my naive idealistic sentiments) I\'ve always liked the idea of leaving the world a better place than it was when I was here.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Avelorn
@bobinator: lollollol

Mm.. I like grapes. Our agriculutre will flourish!! Not only will we be able to grow new vegetables but the competition from other countries will drastically decrease when the effects of drought in other countries will be more apparent.

Saw a \"special\" on it actually just some days ago.

\"Well.. of course we don\'t want global warming.. but.. on the other hand...\"

Which leads to a question. Why do we even have droughts, or more acurately, why do we suffer from the effects of droughts, when we have the technology today to filter fresh water from salt water?

I\'m not even talking about the high cost evaporation/reclamation process(which is actually a secondary benefit from nuclear power), we have passive, energy free filters today, that can take almost all of the salt out of salt water, to a degree that not only is it drinkable but it tastes good, much less being suitable for crops. We\'ve had them for years.
More government ineffciency?
 

Bobinator

Member
@ Dave,

Government ineffciency, no, but rather a shrewd plan to keep those governments at the top of the food chain, we the west could give the equipment to the developing world gratis, it would also be much cheaper than pouring away billions into lost causes, but do we (the governments I mean) no. Keeps the people hungry and our taxes higher, I often wonder how much money England would save if we stoppped giving hand outs to piss pot countries with corrupt dictators. Their people are starving yet Mugabe and his sort drive around in limo\'s, let them sort their own problems out, they\'ve become over reliant on our generosity. Sounds harsh I know.
 
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