Starting with oil paint

boubi

New member
Ok i watched some videos read some information about oil painting for miniatures.
i like to explore different ways to miniature painting to see which techniques work better for me. I am starting to get more interested to colours understanding. I realized that beside the pure painting technique, feathering, wet blending, etc... You need to have colour sense which is much more difficult to acquire.
i would like to combine both exercises, as oil paint is made and much easier for being mixed to find the exact colour you need, i wish to start with few oil paint. So i come to ask what do i need as a starter kit?
i can find oil colors easily here (china shanghai)
1. Which colors?
2. Which odorless solvent?
3. Palette?
4. Special brush? I only have aquarelle 8404 raphael brushes
5. Sealant?

one more question, i read online that oil paint on acrylic base is a good technique. But need to put some varnish on the acrylic. Also to make the oil dry, the fastest is to put in oven for resin and metal mini only... How do you do it for plastic mini? In a way, if you use oil paint, do you have to wait long time between paint jobs on the same minis?

Thanks for your support!
 

Einion

New member
Best of luck dude! You're going to need it ^__^

I'll post more at lunch if I can. Be prepared for a read!

Einion
 

boubi

New member
Best of luck dude! You're going to need it ^__^

I'll post more at lunch if I can. Be prepared for a read!

Einion

Excellent, I am ready for the read! I got a feeling and was hoping that you will be one of the first to answer this thread as I could read from previous post that you use oil paint and you often refer to it.
 

Einion

New member
boubi said:
1. Which colors?
Right, recommending a palette isn't as straightforward as you might think unfortunately. Partly because there are so many viable palettes of any given size (more than a dozen for an average number of paints) and personal preferences can play a big part in what you'll get on well with.

That said, I'll give my usual recommended starter palette in the next post and tell you the reason for each pick; that way you can judge a bit for yourself whether the choices make sense to you. There are plenty of options if they don't.

boubi said:
2. Which odorless solvent?
Just about any one will do, but I'd definitely recommend not getting one from an artists' supplier if you can avoid it. For example, as good as W&N's Sansodor is it's just one of the available low-odour solvents, in a small expensive bottle. So if you can, head to the hardware store or paint shop.

Do test any OMS you're looking at by wafting the open container carefully under your nose, see what you think of the smell and its strength. If you're satisfied on that front go for it.

BTW, even though this kind of thing is materially safer than regular white spirits or turps it's still a good idea to keep the jar or tin on the table capped when you're not actively using it.

boubi said:
3. Palette?
Yes.

Oh you want something more specific? ^__^ It depends a bit on how you intend to mix. Just about anything smooth and non-absorbent can work as a palette and for the time being if you're just going to be mixing very tiny amounts blister plastic will actually do.

Other things you might try include the back of a white plate or a sheet of acetate. If you have one of those white welled palettes they actually work really well with oils, as long as you're sure to wipe up the residual paint before it has dried.

For something a little more permanent, white or light grey glazed ceramic tiles make excellent smaller palettes. Also sheet Perspex or similar works great.

A small piece of glass is arguably the best palette for oils because it's so flat, easy to clean and hard-wearing... can't beat the price either! Even when dry oil paint can easily be removed from glass with a single-edged razor, just push it across the surface and the paint will come cleanly away. Also, you can place the glass on papers of different colours if you want to change the background colour to judge your mixes against (neutral grey is the best overall).

boubi said:
4. Special brush? I only have aquarelle 8404 raphael brushes
They'll do perfectly for detailed painting in oils. But by all means get yourself a few smaller synthetics for playing around with the medium - including mixing, they'll withstand this no problem. For working on larger areas filberts are great, usually work much better than a regular flat, and synthetics are usually the cheapest option for them but see what's available locally.

One of the things that oils are particularly good for is stippling, both to apply the paint as well as as a removal technique (which give about the same result). No sable or Kolinsky brush will take this kind of abuse without damage but a synthetic or small bristle brush will take this kind of abuse.

boubi said:
5. Sealant?
Not necessary but you can use them if you want/need.

If you have problems with matt drying I'd recommend you steer clear of using matt overcoats if you can - there are other ways to help ensure a matter finish - however if you're used to something like Dullcote anyway then it is fine to use over oil paint.

boubi said:
one more question, i read online that oil paint on acrylic base is a good technique. But need to put some varnish on the acrylic.
Nope. Don't know where you read that but it would be atypical to say the least - I can't think of a single oil user who doesn't normally apply them directly onto the hobby paint basecoat.

You can use oil paint on top of Dullcoate or another matt varnish, so if your undercoat colour wasn't as matt as you'd like you could shoot it with something to help the oils go on more evenly, but that's about all I can think of as to why you might want to do this (with the exception of canvas painting, but that's a different ballgame).

boubi said:
Also to make the oil dry, the fastest is to put in oven for resin and metal mini only... How do you do it for plastic mini?
You could make a hot box, using a low-power incandescent bulb that wouldn't get the temp too high, have to experiment though as thinner sections can be sensitive to temps well below the melting point!

boubi said:
In a way, if you use oil paint, do you have to wait long time between paint jobs on the same minis?
If you don't speed-dry the paint yes, you won't reliably be able to work on the same area the following day. Even in the very thin coats that we would typically apply oils might not be dry enough to paint over after 24 hours, it could take as long as three or four days in some cases.

Drying time does depend on colours though (individual pigments make for slower- or faster-drying oils), and to a degree on the paint brand because some have no additives while others have driers added to make the drying time a little more uniform across the range.

boubi said:
i can find oil colors easily here (china shanghai)
Out of curiosity, more than one or two Chinese brands?

Einion
 

Einion

New member
So for a simple seven-colour palette to play around with mixing, here's what I'd suggest. The number in brackets after a name is the pigment code, in cases where the regular name is often not used.

Titanium White
Most opaque white, as well as the whitest and a strong tinter. Cheap too.

Cadmium Yellow
It should be the most opaque yellow. It's relatively expensive though but worth it for the opacity. In common with most cadmium paints it's a relatively subdued mixer.

Can't unfortunately recommend a specific shade as often the Light or Pale versions are fine, but not always - just try to pick one that's fully yellow and not slightly whitish in appearance which limits its mixing range a bit.

Cadmium Red Light/Cadmium Scarlet
Most opaque paint of this rough colour, often more expensive than the Cadmium Yellow. Good news it's the most expensive of the colours I recommend, no other pricey pigments. Again a slightly subdued mixer. No use for mixing violets incidentally - you'll get brown or a dull grey usually.

Quinacridone Magenta (PR122)
Good to have as a primary both theoretically and because of its actual mixing range. Makes a good pairing with the Cad Scarlet because they're about as far apart as possible while still being reds. Moderately pricey in some brands.

French Ultramarine (PB29)
Usually the most violet-blue paint available. Great if you want to mix your own violets and a beautiful colour in its own right. Inexpensive.

Phthalo Blue GS (PB15:3)
One of the commonest green-blue paints. Even though it's a dark blue straight from the tube this can function as a cyan primary for mixing so quite versatile. Very strong (VERY) and a great mixer while still being cheap, so an excellent buy as long as you can get used to its extremely high tinting strength.

A black
A few to pick from here and I don't have a definitely favourite. If you want opacity and a better tendency to dry matt then pick Mars Black. If you might prefer something a little better suited to transparent effects then Lamp Black is a decent choice.

Note that both of these will give noticeably blue-grey tints using nearly any white, particularly with Lamp Black they can be distinctly blue.

This palette should be fine to investigate the medium and practice mixing with, as long as the price of the pricier colours isn't too much to bear... oils can be expensive but I avoid the most expensive oil colours like the cobalts which are mostly unnecessary anyway.

If you'd like to expand on the above a little to include some useful additional colours I'd recommend these for starters:
Yellow Ochre or something similar;
Burnt Umber (good simply as a dark brown but excellent for dulling down many blues);
Chromium Oxide Green (extremely opaque, good starting point for mixing other greens where you want good coverage);
Dioxazine Purple (just if you want the most vivid violets, no real need for it otherwise);
Phthalo Green BS (if you want eye-poppingly bright greens this is your man).

Einion
 

boubi

New member
Thanks Einion for this complete answer.
I saw a palette of colors proposed in a set and it seems that most of the colors you proposed where there.
I see for the brushes, I will check in some local shops, should be quite easy to find and here there is almost cheap alternative...
Thanks for the others answers, I have a better picture now. I just need to try it out now!

I don't know any chinese brand oil paints yet, but you can find many other famous brands locally in Shanghai, as one street is focussed on selling art specific items.
 

boubi

New member
OK I have checked W&N artist range with the following palette:
644 AA S1 Titanium White
108 A S4 Cadmium Yellow
094 A S4 Cadmium Red
106 A S4 Cadmium Scarlet
545 A S2 Quinacridone Magenta
263 A (iii) S2 French Ultramarine
526 A S1 Phthalo Turquoise (PB15/PG7)
331 AA S1 Ivory Black
744 AA S1 Yellow Ochre
076 AA S1 Burnt umber
459 AA S4 Oxide of Chromium (PG17)

This will cost me around 95 USD.

As you can see I didn't find Phthalo blue but only Turquoise but it seems as you described but I didn't find PB15:3.
I checked also I can find Rembrandt quite easily and seems that they have 15ml tube which is enough for a start but cannot get it easily only 40ml.

I also found a chinese brand called Maries really cheap but absolutely not sure about the quality...

I would need to add some solvent, should I take odorless turpentine or white spirit? or both? I think W&N only have Sansodor which is odorless oil thinner/solvent.
 

boubi

New member
Ok so I bought my first oil colors (W&N artist and normal if they didn't have the color, and some rembrandt) and no brand odorless turpentine, the filberts brush, and a small palette knife to mix

I could not wait so I gave it a try tonight, on one of my numerous gnoblars (soon I will use Reaper kickstarter Bones set):
Sorry for the glossy look as the paint is still fresh

So I did the wood shield and try some NMM (the metal part and circle around shield), far to be that good it is still pleasant to see the results after the first try:
View attachment 16571


An I also try some blue NMM
View attachment 16570

So what to say? It is really different from acrylics, the most pleasant part is to work in the fresh all the time. The most disturbing is that the paint is not drying when you want it to (ah ah I know that is contradictory but it is really what I was frustrated about). I will try to finalize this gnoblar in 100% oil to train. If you have any advice and/or comments please just go on!
 

Einion

New member
Lookin' good so far :good:

boubi said:
So what to say? It is really different from acrylics, the most pleasant part is to work in the fresh all the time. The most disturbing is that the paint is not drying when you want it to (ah ah I know that is contradictory but it is really what I was frustrated about).
I know what you mean. In fact just about everyone who has used both mediums will know what you mean! It's just like with acrylics - their fast drying is one of their chief benefits but it's also one of the most frustrating characteristics of the medium.

It'll take some time to get used to the idea of not doing too much in one go but with practice and mistakes you'll get an idea of what's best to leave for the next painting session (after the first coat has fully dried) so you don't get unwanted mixing of colours and softer edges.

Before I forget, if you ended up getting Phthalo Turquoise don't worry, in some respects this actually is a better choice as the cyan primary in a painter's palette.

Einion
 
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boubi

New member
Ok so i continue my adventure with oil paint. I try to figure out what is the best technique to apply and mix the paint and found an ok way to deal with it. I just don't know if i need to add a slight touch of turpentine in the paint before using it, to make it "smoother".
So here we go with some updated picture of the gnoblar, which is too small for oil paint i guess but still a good exercise for me, don't look too much on the color selection as i was trying different mixes as you can see in the background
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Please experts in oil color, let a comment and/or tips in order to improve skills of using oil paint for miniatures painting.
Already a big thanks to Einion to have helped me to start using and discover oil paint.
 

Einion

New member
Welcome, glad to try to help.

boubi said:
I just don't know if i need to add a slight touch of turpentine in the paint before using it, to make it "smoother".
Certainly try adding a bit of spirits if you think it would help, each person should go about discovering what works best for them by experimenting as you're doing - it's all about finding the consistency/ies that work best for you.

Some people swear by using the paint full-strength with no spirits at all - the "spread it out don't thin it out" school - while many others prefer to have the paint thinned, even if only very slightly, to make it move around a little more easily. I think for small scales the second makes the most sense.

You'll probably find that just a small amount has quite an effect compared to the paint straight from the tube; you can thin more heavily if you choose, taking oils all the way to around the same viscosity as you'd paint with enamel paints is perfectly doable.

boubi said:
So here we go with some updated picture of the gnoblar, which is too small for oil paint i guess but still a good exercise for me...
Honestly it is a lot smaller than lots of modellers are comfortable using the medium, but there's not really an inherent lower limit - all of the best painters of flats use oils paints and the scale of many of them is around that of minis.

Einion
 

Wombat85

New member
Hey, Eionon guided me when I started with oils so let me share some things I have learn't over my past year of use:

1: Oils are such a different kettle of fish compared to acrylics, and often how you use them is entirely determined by what you are trying to achieve with them.

2. They are great for those smooth blends, after the paint is dry blend in some highlight and low light directly to the highs and lows, this will really make it pop.

3. Thining is good for a base that high's and lows can then be blended into.

4. Dont brush lick, just saying still havent figured this out.
 

Jbickley00

New member
I have had good results adding liquin as a thinning agent, it speeds up the drying time as well
Einion's color choice is a good palette for starting with acrylics too.
 

boubi

New member
Thank you Wombat85 and Jbickley00 for your advice. I like working with oil, my experience is quite limited until now because i was not really free to go further trying. I also think that the palette is quite good, even if I have the impression to have a quite dull overall colors. But I am convinced that this is coming from my limited color theory knowledge and mixing capacity.
So far what bother me most is the drying time (~4days). I didn't have time to build a drying box as mentioned by Einion, but I believe that you are getting used to it and on the other hand one potential advantage to "pause" your mini for a while and get back to it with fresher ideas later on.

I will post final "oily" gnoblar soon...
 

Einion

New member
boubi said:
I also think that the palette is quite good, even if I have the impression to have a quite dull overall colors. But I am convinced that this is coming from my limited color theory knowledge and mixing capacity.
There is some inevitability of this with a limited palette - in practice limited does mean limiting in some way, despite any claims to the contrary - but the route to specific colours does of course make a big difference. For example, if you mix to the same orange hue with a medium Cadmium Yellow + Cadmium Scarlet and also using the same yellow with Quin Magenta you'll get two quite different results, not just in value (how light or dark) but also in chroma (vividness or intensity).

There's a rule of thumb of mixing that the further apart two colours are the duller a mix of them will be, which broadly holds true but there are exceptions due to various factors (mostly down to the specific pigments involved).

Anyway, since most colours aren't just a simple blend of A + B the main thing to aim for is to use the least number of ingredients, if you feel your mixed colour is a bit dull. Another thing to consider is using glazing at the end, which will nearly always increase the chroma. But eventually this kind of thing is cause to increase the palette size - it's one common reason for adding a violet to the palette for example.

boubi said:
So far what bother me most is the drying time (~4days).
Yeah, and it just gets worse in cold weather! I've been finishing off some new sculpting tools the past weeks and with the drop in temperature here I'm not getting complete drying of one additional coat of oil in five days, when in the summer it can take just over a day and a half.

Einion
 

boubi

New member
Ok here my final gnoblar... No base for the moment because I will put it on my Ogre mini base.
It was fun to paint it entirely in oil, was a really good exercise. I will look for other mini which I will use oil paint... this time with bigger surfaces to cover to really take full advantage of oil drying time... But in a way to have try on such small mini was also a really good training to realize the different with acrylics.
p1240433496-2.jpg
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p1240433436-2.jpg


So what do you think??
Any comments are welcome, where are the biggest mistakes?
 

Kretcher

Active member
I think it is very nice, Oil is a difficult medium when used for the first time. I have heard that people put the base colour in acrylics and then paint with oils on top of it? Einion is that done and why? (hijacking your thread here with a question :) )
 

boubi

New member
(hijacking your thread here with a question :) )
Hijack accepted because i would really like to get also the answer. I have read that you can do oil on top of acrylics, but not reverse, only if you wait for completely dry oil and varnish it with matt varnish first.
 

Dragonsreach

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think it is very nice, Oil is a difficult medium when used for the first time. I have heard that people put the base colour in acrylics and then paint with oils on top of it? Einion is that done and why? (hijacking your thread here with a question :) )

Hijack accepted because i would really like to get also the answer. I have read that you can do oil on top of acrylics, but not reverse, only if you wait for completely dry oil and varnish it with matt varnish first.
Since I've done this a couple of times I'll give my Two pennoth.

Acrylics can act as a base coat to the oils reducing the amount of work needed for the blending and toning of shadows.
However If your acrylics are in anyway rough the oils will show every discrepancy, lump and brushstroke you didn't think was there, in spades! (B,T,D,T,G,T,S!)
If you are doing Flesh tones a good mid skin tone mix in acrylics will benefit from a careful series of glazes and work, BUT this is work for those who are willing to exercise patience. Talking to painters and judges at Euro-Militaire showed me that a high quality bust can take one of them between 6-8 months worth of work.
Even if you build yourself a drying cabinet and use the right mediums for thinning and drying, this process is not an afternoons work but worked carefully it can be a beautiful reward in itself.
 
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