Bin Laden has apparently been killed by US Special Forces.
- Thread starter cfwheeler58
- Start date
dogfacedboy uk1
New member
I reckon the US got the wrong guy, probably like Osama's cousin or something, next week our SAS boys will get the real osama and post up some photos of his actual dead body. lol.
In all seriousness, it is impossible to convince the world of his death without the evidence. Obama can say we got him purely to bolster his election campaign and us citizens would be none the wiser. I remain unconvinced it happened.
dfb
In all seriousness, it is impossible to convince the world of his death without the evidence. Obama can say we got him purely to bolster his election campaign and us citizens would be none the wiser. I remain unconvinced it happened.
dfb
Torn blue sky
New member
That pic is a shopped fake anyway, apparently. Didn't figure it'd take long for someone to mash one up, doubt there won't be others emerging on t'internets either.
vincegamer
Active member
I don't know if any of you conspiracy supporters are serious or poes.
I'm just going to point out that if he wasn't killed, what would happen? He'd put out a message about what a bunch of lying wussies Americans are, trying to claim a false victory, yada yada yada. Obama would be humiliated, lose face and support and Donald Trump would be the next president.
I'm just going to point out that if he wasn't killed, what would happen? He'd put out a message about what a bunch of lying wussies Americans are, trying to claim a false victory, yada yada yada. Obama would be humiliated, lose face and support and Donald Trump would be the next president.
Ickthorne
New member
Thank you Dogface. This is why I posted in the first place. Lets look at the facts.
1) gov claims they got him, but has no body to show
2) gov confirms DNA, but there is no way to do an indepenant verifacation.
3) Yes Skeeve, pictures can be doctored. All we now have are some photos, but now there is no body to compare them with.
This is why I asked the question in the first place. Is it a conspiracy to say he wasn't killed or is a conspiracy to say he was?
1) gov claims they got him, but has no body to show
2) gov confirms DNA, but there is no way to do an indepenant verifacation.
3) Yes Skeeve, pictures can be doctored. All we now have are some photos, but now there is no body to compare them with.
This is why I asked the question in the first place. Is it a conspiracy to say he wasn't killed or is a conspiracy to say he was?
Though that's presupposing the whole Al-Qaeda deal isn't part of some larger and unfathomable scheme, OBL could be/have been working WITH the government/skulls and bones/illuminati/[insert random name here]!
IdofEntity
New member
Look, there are some things you're either going to take the governments word for or you aren't. I'm choosing to trust them on this one on the simple fact that if they are lying the truth will out, and then so many careers will be destroyed.
They're not going to show you a side-by-side genetic comparison of the DNA strands, and they aren't going to dredge the body back up just for you to look at. They're not going to go through pain-staking measures to convince the tiny demographic of hardcore conspiracy nuts. They never do. The simple fact is, they don't think you're important enough. They're right. The conspiracy theorists that are crying foul are a bare smidgen of the voting populace.
To answer your question, each of your questions would be an example of a conspiracy. A clandestine raid to kill a man is a conspiracy (even when legal) and a concerted effort to fool a population would be a conspiracy.
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TrystanGST
New member
side-by-side comparison? Could be faked.
Dredged up body? Could be faked.
As you said, the nutters are always going to find something that doesn't smell right. Whether it's DNA, or a body (or lack of), or the date, or the people involved, or the phase of the moon, etc....
vincegamer
Active member
And it is the nature of conspiracy theories that any contrary evidence is only further evidence of the conspiracy.
Of cause it could. In fact, the only way to determine that DNA from a dead body belongs to a person A, is to already have an example of person's A DNA in the first place. In that case it is a very simple match, and a seriously doubt that they actually sequence this DNA, there are much simple methods then that.
If you don't have a prior DNA sample of Ossama then the only conclusion you can make is that the person killed is either a relative of Ossama or an offspring of "his" parents (that assuming you actually have DNA sample of his parents and relatives). It is not written in his DNA that is was "made for Ossama bin Laden"
Given time and money everything could be faked, especially if the person examining is just one simple you doing it from the screen of your TV. Do you want to personally see a body? I mean, are you a professional forensic examiner to vouch that what you see (assuming you will be shown it) is not tampered with? How do you know that the person doing " indepenant verifacation" for you was not bought by me yesterday?
As for these photos you are referring to. I actually think that this particular one is fake. It was mentioned on CNN yesterday.
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Avelorn
Sven Jonsson
The bottom line is that you cannot know for certain anything at all. Even if they showed you the body personally it would have no bearing upon the certainty of his death in general. In the framework of conspiracy theory any major event is fabricated in some way and this one as well. I and some people else in this thread just notes that it is highly unlikely in any other framework of thinking.
Being sceptical and having a conspiracy mindset are two different things as the conspiracy theorist does not generally question the conspiracy itself (but of course debate fiercely by which means it is been carried out and by whom exactly). As that would question the entire world view of the person in question, how things fit together. Conspiracy theories are a way to make sense of the world that is in essence chaotic. If you go down that path it is difficult to go back to uncertainty again. I guess conspiracy theory and cynicism are more tightly connected. Perhaps as a religion for the cynic.
But of course there has been conspiracies, that is for sure. I just don't think this is one and I don't believe in a "great conspiracy" that is in the heart of the conspiracy mindset. I don't know, I'm constantly at wonder on how many people I know that don't think U.S. went to the moon for example, and I don't think most of them are conspiracy theorist either. They just felt clever and special when they saw the documentary and perhaps stupid for believing the moonlanding in the first place. Admitting you're wrong twice about the same issue is a hard pill to swallow. When I confront people and argue for that the moonlanding indeed happened, point out why the "documentary" that most people've seen is flawed etc. the reaction for the more hardcore believers tend to be "you cannot possibly know either", we "have just different theories" etc. Relativism is a pain in that sense. But it's useful for other things.
If just people in general, me included, understood that being wrong does not equal being stupid we'd have better debates and discussions. In fact having yourself proven wrong is good as you've actually learnt something then. But it's easy to say...
oh god.. I just hope I'm right in this....
Being sceptical and having a conspiracy mindset are two different things as the conspiracy theorist does not generally question the conspiracy itself (but of course debate fiercely by which means it is been carried out and by whom exactly). As that would question the entire world view of the person in question, how things fit together. Conspiracy theories are a way to make sense of the world that is in essence chaotic. If you go down that path it is difficult to go back to uncertainty again. I guess conspiracy theory and cynicism are more tightly connected. Perhaps as a religion for the cynic.
But of course there has been conspiracies, that is for sure. I just don't think this is one and I don't believe in a "great conspiracy" that is in the heart of the conspiracy mindset. I don't know, I'm constantly at wonder on how many people I know that don't think U.S. went to the moon for example, and I don't think most of them are conspiracy theorist either. They just felt clever and special when they saw the documentary and perhaps stupid for believing the moonlanding in the first place. Admitting you're wrong twice about the same issue is a hard pill to swallow. When I confront people and argue for that the moonlanding indeed happened, point out why the "documentary" that most people've seen is flawed etc. the reaction for the more hardcore believers tend to be "you cannot possibly know either", we "have just different theories" etc. Relativism is a pain in that sense. But it's useful for other things.
If just people in general, me included, understood that being wrong does not equal being stupid we'd have better debates and discussions. In fact having yourself proven wrong is good as you've actually learnt something then. But it's easy to say...
oh god.. I just hope I'm right in this....
Change 'Biel' to 'Alba' and I swear you're stealing my thoughts!
TrystanGST
New member
Send Biel my way then, damnit!
Torn blue sky
New member
HAH! I actually just pictured Samuel L facing off with Bin Laden. This could be a contender for most prized memory ever.
cannon_fodder
New member
I just want to chime in here to say, I agree some of this is not jiving all the way, but I feel more than certain that we have him and that he is dead...Why?
Because if he were alive (and still roaming free), we would be seeing one of his notorious videos. Faking his death would only help his case that we are liars, manipulative, etc.
Is he alive? maybe, do I believe we took him from...somewhere?. Absolutely! Is he dead? probably, still no 'real photographic proof (Google Osama Body, scared to open some due to viruses, but apparently current pics are faked).
Because if he were alive (and still roaming free), we would be seeing one of his notorious videos. Faking his death would only help his case that we are liars, manipulative, etc.
Is he alive? maybe, do I believe we took him from...somewhere?. Absolutely! Is he dead? probably, still no 'real photographic proof (Google Osama Body, scared to open some due to viruses, but apparently current pics are faked).
Or like the party that was going on after Hitler was declared dead 66 years before President Obama's announcement? What about Guy Fawkes Day? VJ day? Any action movie of the 80's and after?
Who knows, it may lead to a new holiday in Texas in the vein of Fawkes Night, with people firing at Osama in effigy to celebrate instead of burning it.
Stress, Tension, the relief are the only prerequisites to a party regardless of the theme.
Edit: Oooh, or thousands of different celebrations parading a depiction of a man suffering one of the worst ancient tortures since the invention of the Brass Bull or till the invention of the Judas Cradle.
I wouldn't be surprised that some of the information isn't jiving with some people. The press can't even agree on whether he was killed weeks ago or on May 1st (though the president said it happened on may 1st), and the reporting so far has been like reading through a Warseer Warhammer rumors thread. For every 1 fact given by the government, a dozen pages of different, twisted, or outright false facts have been thrown out.
Frankly we don't have the information to come to a decision on this, and we wont have it anytime within the next decade due to the nature of this mission.
Was Pakistan working with OBL or did they help us? - If they did help us, then it was through intelligence gathering via people who were helping or part of the organization that was hiding Bin Laden. So any answer to that would lead to a nightmare in either public relations or intelligence.
Confirmation Photos? - Not going to happen. Any attempt to parade a dead man's face around the world will lead to yet another nightmare. The Taliban will declare us barbarians and gain yet more support, and who would we be to disagree when we're holding up a dead man's head in one hand and the weapon that killed him in the other. Death photos = bad idea.
Names of those involved and mission specifics - any one who even asks that needs to be thoroughly looked at by a doctor or the FBI. Not sure which yet.
Which would be completely pointless when he holds up a newspaper smiling to the camera two days later, as the last few over-enthusiastic obituary writers learned.
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Torn blue sky
New member
Just to stir the pot.
TrystanGST
New member
Thanks for the laugh. It's all the offshore banks and world government! *tinfoil hat*
