bush speech
- Thread starter uberdark
- Start date
vincegamer
Active member
Are you saying that no matter what the cost in human life, we should force our democratic ideals on a foreign country? Perhaps we can find other ways of taking responsibility for destroying a stable (if arbitrarily bloody) regime and replacing it with chaos besides fueling the fire with human kindling.
If it makes you feel any better Rev, I have NEVER seen Faranheit 9/11. I really didn\'t need that to hate Bush.
What a great idea!
Let\'s bring all those soldiers HOME, and re-deploy them in California!
Why? ??? Who died and left us boss?
To use you guys figures against you - then countries should be sending troops to US, because the yearly death toll in America blows away anything Sadam and his cronies did.
Seriously though, this is pointless. We should have never went in. but now we are stuck there because it will just turn into an even worse cesspool of violence. Having an oil-rich country DEPEND on us for a decade or two? Yes, VERY humanitarian of us...
And I wouldn\'t worry too much about Africa either, I\'m pretty sure Angelina Jolie plans on saving the continent one baby at a time. :|~
We can argue until we are blue in the face, but it will change nothing. We have no voice in our own Gov\'t anymore, and our votes are meaningless.
I\'m just praying Armageddon happens soon so I can sit back and watch the fireworks.
Pessimist? Nahhh... I\'ve gone WAY beyond pessimism.
When 90% of the Iraqi population turned out in mass at the polls to have their voices heard, under threat of death from radicals, I\'d hardly call that forcing Democracy on them.
And I ask you what do you think would happen if we just pick up and leave?
And as Steelcult has said, an actual person on the ground, in Iraq, there is far less chaos than the media would like you to believe.
And to answer your question Markus, when we decided to go to war, we made ourselves boss. We made the mess, we must clean it up.
Godlikebuthumble
New member
Right. So it\'s anyone\'s good right to say: \"Oh boy, nice mess you got yourselves into.\" And as for supporting the troops (me not being American, so what do I know ), wouldn\'t the best course of action be to work on the home front to improve social opportunities in a way that poor saps without any real chance in life had any other way to raise their standing than in joining the forces? Might (just might) keep the top dogs from jumping into the breech left and right.
Just my two Euro Cents.
), wouldn\'t the best course of action be to work on the home front to improve social opportunities in a way that poor saps without any real chance in life had any other way to raise their standing than in joining the forces? Might (just might) keep the top dogs from jumping into the breech left and right.Just my two Euro Cents.
Originally posted by Godlikebuthumble
Right. So it\'s anyone\'s good right to say: \"Oh boy, nice mess you got yourselves into.\" And as for supporting the troops (me not being American, so what do I know
Just my two Euro Cents.
That is a leftist meme, perpetuated by the likes of John Kerry, without any fact in today\'s US military.
The current US military is one of the most highly trained, highly educated militaries in the world. It is not the poor, brown people that make up the majority of our military, but the middle class, white, and many have other options but choose to join.In fact, the standards were raised from our prior days with the inclusion of the ASVAB tests.
I myself at the time I joined was middle class with many different options.
I chose the military, knowing full well that I could see combat and possibly die.
vincegamer
Active member
I agree that the military is no longer the refuge of the poor and uneducated that it once was. I believe we learned we have to have certain standards to have an effective military. However, it was that once, and the standards it has are not that high. For many it is the best financial option. That\'s just not the majority (or so I believe).
But as the government wants to increase the size of the army by some 90000 permanently, they do a lot to recruit among the largest population block.
Anyway, that\'s a red herring here.
To the question of what would happen if we pulled out, I say I don\'t know. I only suspect it would be a rise of petty warlords similar to Afghanistan prior to the arrival of the Taliban. I don\'t think that would be a good thing and so I don\'t support a sudden complete pullout. Did you assume I did?
I\'m just saying there are options besides more of the same. Bush\'s speech for the first time suggested he actually had a change in mind by suggesting securing neighborhoods as a goal, which was to my understanding never done before.
However, I don\'t think that will work either.
I lean toward dividing Iraq along its historical/ethnic/political borders - the ones prior to England\'s having made it a province of the empire.
But as the government wants to increase the size of the army by some 90000 permanently, they do a lot to recruit among the largest population block.
Anyway, that\'s a red herring here.
To the question of what would happen if we pulled out, I say I don\'t know. I only suspect it would be a rise of petty warlords similar to Afghanistan prior to the arrival of the Taliban. I don\'t think that would be a good thing and so I don\'t support a sudden complete pullout. Did you assume I did?
I\'m just saying there are options besides more of the same. Bush\'s speech for the first time suggested he actually had a change in mind by suggesting securing neighborhoods as a goal, which was to my understanding never done before.
However, I don\'t think that will work either.
I lean toward dividing Iraq along its historical/ethnic/political borders - the ones prior to England\'s having made it a province of the empire.
In part becuase I voted for him. Not once but twice! That\'s why! But seriously, show me any politician who actually has their brain engaged before they put their mouth in gear.
Take Hilliary Clinton, my senator from New York. I did not vote for her, twice! But every so often she says something that floors me. \"My God,\" I cry to the heavens, \"Where is the on button on her brain? Doesn\'t she ever \'think\' or does she just regurgitate decades old manure?\"
(A good example, from the land where people routinely drive 75MPH down a 55MPH expressway, Hilliary claimed that we could use less oil if the nation reverted to the strict 55MPH speed limit of decades past. The fact is people drive slower where the speed limit is 65MPH than they do when it is 55MPH.)
George W Bush is like that at times as well. But I think we all have a right to be at times STUPID. I\'m sick of the notion that somehow we are supposed to be electing saints to high office.
Remember, it could have been Gore. My God, it could have been Gore. The W \'04 sticker is still fresh on my bumber. My president, even if he doesn\'t have a CLUE.
Remember that when Hillary takes the oath of office in 2009 with \"first man\" Bill by her side.
A
Arkzein
Guest
Not to stir up crap, but might as well toss my honest opinion into the mix from another perspective rather than try and gloss it over and make myself out as something I\'m not.
Is it wrong to simply not care about Iraq at all?
There\'s so much happening around the world and we\'re all expected to feel so terrible about it and have all these strong opinions one way or the other. Well, I don\'t. Those that do, protestors, supporters, the politcians, the military etc, do their thing. People argue and debate, people die, some rightly, most wrongly. It\'s played out time and time again across the world in a hundred different ways. If you\'re unlucky you get caught up in it. (Such as the bomb in my hometown back in \'98, 30 dead, most of which couldn\'t care less about the Northern Ireland \"situation\").
Iraq? Africa? Global Warming? Put in whatever other issue you can think of, all terrible things that \"Should have something done about them\". I\'m not a total bastard, I don\'t *like* to see suffering anywhere, my heart at least goes out to those having a hard time anywhere, but I\'m lucky enough to not have it in my life. The only time they have an even slight effect on me is times like now, reading this, a heartbreaking moment on television/in a newspaper or rambling over a pint in the pub.
Saying it as blunty as above seems have have one effect or the other on folk. Either they think me a, to quote, \"Souless Bastard\" or they agree that, terrible as it is, when it comes down to it they don\'t really care either.
As an aside, how much of an issue do you think this would be if the Media seldom covered it, or focused on all the good work going on? Or for that matter if it wasn\'t \"our own\" getting killed. (Much worse is happening elsewhere, are some lives worth more than others, or do some just make better news?) Where is Afghanistan now in people\'s minds? Where is saving the Whales? Famine in Africa? Northern Ireland? Nowhere, other than those affected directly and those who care more than the normal bloke on the street.
Is it wrong to simply not care about Iraq at all?
There\'s so much happening around the world and we\'re all expected to feel so terrible about it and have all these strong opinions one way or the other. Well, I don\'t. Those that do, protestors, supporters, the politcians, the military etc, do their thing. People argue and debate, people die, some rightly, most wrongly. It\'s played out time and time again across the world in a hundred different ways. If you\'re unlucky you get caught up in it. (Such as the bomb in my hometown back in \'98, 30 dead, most of which couldn\'t care less about the Northern Ireland \"situation\").
Iraq? Africa? Global Warming? Put in whatever other issue you can think of, all terrible things that \"Should have something done about them\". I\'m not a total bastard, I don\'t *like* to see suffering anywhere, my heart at least goes out to those having a hard time anywhere, but I\'m lucky enough to not have it in my life. The only time they have an even slight effect on me is times like now, reading this, a heartbreaking moment on television/in a newspaper or rambling over a pint in the pub.
Saying it as blunty as above seems have have one effect or the other on folk. Either they think me a, to quote, \"Souless Bastard\" or they agree that, terrible as it is, when it comes down to it they don\'t really care either.
As an aside, how much of an issue do you think this would be if the Media seldom covered it, or focused on all the good work going on? Or for that matter if it wasn\'t \"our own\" getting killed. (Much worse is happening elsewhere, are some lives worth more than others, or do some just make better news?) Where is Afghanistan now in people\'s minds? Where is saving the Whales? Famine in Africa? Northern Ireland? Nowhere, other than those affected directly and those who care more than the normal bloke on the street.
AinuLainour
New member
The only explanation I can offer for saying that is ...well.. it\'s more about Canadians being influenced by Americans (aka taking out my welled up frusturation on a CMoN user who \'set\' me off, how stupid is that? Very.).
Fellow students didn\'t used to care about politics, but as soon as they caught Farenheit 9/11 (and American/Canadian music groups ranting about how evil Bush and the Republicans are, etc.) I found myself being personally ridiculed for not sharing their views.
So enough is enough, I\'m sorry if I offend people, but I say what I believe. These students don\'t though, they are almost completely influenced by their parents, and overly-bias media focus. I probably should have created a Farenheit 9/11 rant in a seperate thread, but it\'s too late now.
The comment made towards Uberdark was more of an assumption that I didn\'t properly put into words. I\'ve just had too many experiences with people who\'s political thoughts have stemmed from that one movie.
EDIT: Always, it seems, I do not translate my thoughts into text properly, so I plan on staying away from these political threads unless I have something more constructive to say (which I do, but my guess is that Reverend wont stop taking the worst of what I write).
funnymouth
Active member
moore sucks (hes a sensationalist), but i still think bush is an wretched bastard (no, not evil, but misguided).
assumption is one of the most negative forces in our civilization. in the context of a forum, perception of others is poor, so it is usually best to refrain.
as long as you make well informed decisions your opinion is above ridicule - but it is not above critique.
assumption is one of the most negative forces in our civilization. in the context of a forum, perception of others is poor, so it is usually best to refrain.
as long as you make well informed decisions your opinion is above ridicule - but it is not above critique.
Shawn R. L.
New member
Winston Churchill was mocked and derided for raising the alarm about Hitler before WW2 when there was time and oppertunity to do something about.
AinuLainour
New member
I wholey agree with that statement (though perhaps I like Bush a teeny bit more!).
And Shawn\'s reply is interesting as well, it makes one wonder what the world would be like if Saddam Hussein was still at large. He would likely be forging alliances between the Iranian PM and Hugo Chavez methinks.
vincegamer
Active member
excuse my while I pick myself up off the floor and catch my breath from laughing so hard.
AinuLainour
New member
\"In apparent reaction, Iran then signed a formal agreement with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a virulent U.S. foe, to establish a $2 billion fund to help other countries free themselves from what they described as U.S. domination. And in an even more pointed signal, Iran last week released a 2003 exchange of letters with the White House in which Tehran offered a package of concessions that were rejected.\"
Linke
Link #2
Link #3
Personally I don\'t find it all that hilarious.
