Firearms & co... hate or love them?

[Orb]

Dave: Spacemunkie described the arguments as cretinous, not you. You sound, on that point, very defensive and considering you called my arguments drivel. Pot - kettle - black if you ask me.

Right - for my part I\'m anti liberalisation of gun control. The way it works in my country is fine. For the US, there is no way to change things now. What does exist scares me, I admit, but thats based on my life experiences. I, like Fizl, am a bit wierded by seeing armed police in the UK, but I feel safe as I know they are trained.

I would rather there were no guns. Over in the UK, pro-gun people are generally not the live and let live types; the anti-gun folks are far more live and let live - excepting they don\'t like the idea of guns being more available.

But as I said, I wouldn\'t try to change the gun laws in the US, because there\'s already 300 million guns there. It\'s impossible to sort that out

Edit; Dave - four amazing experiences! Apart from the Navy experiences (Military with a gun = legitimate reason for gun possession) seems like you\'ve had more than your fair share of scary experiences, and hence can understand your views. Don\'t know if your experiences are normal or you\'ve been more unlucky than most!
(time to look up chances of being victim of vioent crime)

Edit2: Wow, Louisiana has a pretty high crime rate in the US, so maybe your experiences are the norm for that state

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
Now, that\'s four personal experiences, in which my having a gun, put me in a far better position for myself, my shipmates or my loved ones, than if I had not had a gun.

My sole experience with a gun was from the other end of the damn thing. Let me explain; about 19 years ago, a girlfriend and I were walking along at midnight, and it was safe to do so, or so we thought. We got into the \'mood\' and leant up against the prefabricated wall of a house. A panel was loose and jiggled in its slot. We duly got down to some good snogging when some cretin comes running out of this house, yelling and pointing his handgun at us. Apparently, we\'d disturbed the peace, and his wife and child were trying to sleep. He held us at gunpoint for two hours until the police came. Had he stood down, instead of maintaining his righteous pride, it would\'ve been a different matter entirely.

Evil Dave, I respect the four situations you give as valid, yet have you ever been at the other end of the gun when you\'ve actually done bugger-all wrong? Ever had some wide-eyed cretin threatening you with a gun, when you\'ve not had one? (And even if you did, it would be folly to go for it in the above situation) If you have, then I\'m quite sure you\'ll understand whose rights have been violated, and whose pants were thoroughly soiled. If you\'ve been the guy at the other end in such a situation, then for lack of good judgement, you\'ve been abusing the power that a gun gives you.

It\'s very hard to talk about rights, the above arsehole might\'ve had a right to protect his family, but what about the rights of the legal-age kids who were sitting, kissing, on the public pavement? When someone asserts their rights, they almost always are infringing on the rights of others. Something that always gets forgotten is human duties and human responsibilities, particularly when it comes to gun ownership. The rights and duties go hand-in-hand. This, I believe, is why anti-gun people are \'infringing\' on the rights of the gun owners, in that the gun owners far too often neglect the duties and responsibilities of gun ownership.

The fun point of the story was that the following night, he answered his doorbell, and stomped out a pile of burning paper, to find that the dogshit underneath was also starting to burn. Also to find me grinning at him from across the street.

 

[Bobinator]

Well, I read all the posts and have come to the following conclusion. Anti gun or pro gun, some good some bad, who cares, lets just spark up the bong and go travelling on my wonderous cloud palace of delightful pleasures. If you own a gun just be careful and stay safe, whose who dont just learn to duck and run really fast. Either way it dont matter a damn cos we\'re all the same, we have the same fears, hopes and dreams and all have the same right to a free and happy life, its just a shame a tiny minority of dirtbags want to spoil it, well they\'ll get what they deserve in the end, we all do, gun or no.

 

[Sage]

Well as it has been mentioned before your more likely to shoot a loved one in your home with a gun then an intruder. There is also the problem that someone can use your gun against you. I am not anti gun at all there are too many of them in the streets to start taking them away from those who register them. Everyone who owns a gun should have some measure of training better to err on the side of caution LOTS of training. Personally I own several guns but mine are on the order of muzzle loaders. You want to stop gun crimes prevent everyone but cops and military from owning anything but a single action weapon. Personally I believe martial arts trainning is better it can\'t be turned against you sure its no match for a gun but you will never accedently kill someone. Well you might but you are less likely to kill a loved one by mistake.

BTW I do appreciate a community where a conversation about guns brings in pictures of good looking women

 

[Evil Dave]

Now, the one consideration I would concede to over outright banning is training.
You need training and testing to drive a car, you should need it to own a gun.

But then again, I think there should be a license for having kids.

I would also support tougher punishments for those that use guns in crimes, especially since it seems our punishments aren\'t that effective since we have so many repeat offenders.

That is one point the gun has over our justice system, break into my home with the intent to harm and I absolutely guarantee that if I have to shoot, they will not repeat it again.

@modderrhu: Actually, yes I have been in the situation you describe, about three times here, and twice in San Diego.
I\'ve also been mugged in San Diego and stabbed.
Do I blame the guns or even the knife? No.
I blame the people, some people I wouldn\'t trust with a sharpened pencil, though.
Edit: I also ended up staring down the barrels of four AK-47\'s when my steel toe boots accidentally set off a metal detector in an air port in the UAE, but I actually commended the guards for not being lax on security, it was my mistake, not theirs.


Another point I\'d like to bring up: Is the cops and military issue.

I can say truthfully that I had far more gun safety training from my father than I ever got from the military.
I can also say truthfully that I go to the firing range about once a month and put around 200 rounds through each of my guns. The cops that come there are dismally lax about their gun safety and accuracy.

To me, it comes down to responsibility and control.
My life, and my family\'s lives are far more important to me than to some rookie cop making $25K a year.
I will not give up the control to protect them to less qualified people who are just doing their jobs.

 

[laurence]

luv

Originally posted by krom1415
lol I think the bobinator has it right, with \"a giant sky ship of love\"

Do we get to choose calibures and model types on this ship :bouncy: :moon:

Luuuuuuuuurve baby luuurvelol

Brilliant if you ask me!

 

[laurence]

The man!

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Originally posted by Orb

I think SM\'s stats are a little off but the stats still speak for themselves.

Those weren\'t my stats. That wasn\'t me speaking.

It was Bill Hicks in 1992.

All the usual cretinous pro-gun arguements have been fired off I see. Firearms were never designed for \'protection\', they were designed to kill. They offer no protection. They don\'t stop bullets or knives. They just let you fight back.

They offer as much protection to their owners as nuclear weapons do to the countries that possess them. It\'s all about the threat and fear of retaliation.

Not the sort of society I want to live in thank you.

I\'ve got to agree with Bill on this one. I always seem to agree with Bill. What a legend!
*edit* Maybe that\'s why he left us---he couldn\'t stand all the darn fighting.

 

[Braveheart712]

Originally posted by Orb
so do you walk around with a gun on you, even drawn? \'cos that\'s the only way I can see you\'d have time to retaliate. You\'re not going to say to an asailant, \"hang on, let me get my gun\" now are you

No, my friend, I am in possession of a concealed carry permit. That means that when I carry my weapon it is concealed, and trust me I can produce it as quickly as I could produce my wallet to any would-be attacker. On a side note, I do sleep with a loaded .45 under the mattress.

I don\'t expect to convince anyone here about the benefits of being able to posess a weapon. You will think what you want. Being an American, it is ingrained in tradition. When the colonists revolted and threw out British rulership, it was a direct result of private gun ownership and the militia. This idea was then reflected in our Constitution through our right to bear arms. I am not here to comment on other countries or situations, but here in the US private gun ownership for protection exists. It is a right and just policy. I do wish that the government would do something about the illegal guns and the crime around them, but this arguement in no way should be confused with the legal ownership and use of weapons.

 

[Braveheart712]

I do agree Dave on the training and proper use of firearms. In have been through several courses myself and am proficient in the use of my firearms. ( That means I am an accurate shot and I have been trained to fire, carry and store weapons safely )

 

[Sage]

I mean afterall those people who don\'t know how to use guns properly think its a good idea to shoot at anything that moves without confirming the identity of their target. Personally I think trainning should be long and intense making sure you have a good degree of accuracy control and get that jittery nature out of someone using a gun for the first time.

On a personal note I think every woman should have 3 things. First 10 years of martial arts trainning not a single two hour self defense course. Second trainning in use and handling of guns. Finally a dog over 100lbs well trained and very protective. Unfortunaltly women are targeted more often then men because they are percieved as weaker which is a matter of trainning.

 

[Bobinator]

@Laurence.
Anything goes on the sky ship man, hell you dont need to bring your own we got \'em in all shapes and sizes

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
@modderrhu: Actually, yes I have been in the situation you describe, about three times here, and twice in San Diego.

Then I can easily respect your decisions and choices. Oddly twisted: so as not to die by the sword, you have to live by it.

 

[laurence]

Anything goes

Originally posted by Bobinator
@Laurence.
Anything goes on the sky ship man, hell you dont need to bring your own we got \'em in all shapes and sizes

Sounds cool. I guess that means that I can leave my little miniature collection safely behind. I\'ll have to bring my CD collection and guitar though. Just in case.:innocent:

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Modderrhu

Originally posted by Evil Dave
@modderrhu: Actually, yes I have been in the situation you describe, about three times here, and twice in San Diego.

Then I can easily respect your decisions and choices. Oddly twisted: so as not to die by the sword, you have to live by it.

Somewhat yes and somewhat no.
Shooting is a skill while firearms are tools, just like I have the skills and tools to drywall a house.
However, I don\'t go around drywalling houses all the time. I use the skills and tools when necessary.

The problem as I see it is criminals, whom we\'re never going to be able to get the guns from, and people who cannot tell when it is actually necessary. The overreactors who pull their gun for anything and everything.

When I hear a noise in the house my first reaction is not to grab my gun, my first reaction is to listen to my dog. If he is growling, which he would not do if it were my wife, then I get my gun.

 

[paintingploddy]

I\'ve never been sure about that statistic about being more likely to shoot a loved one.

I suppose I have always had an issue with the sole purpose of gun ownership being self defence. I think my reaction would be less if those who do use the firearm and shoot someone are prepared to explain themselves, and bear the consequences (if need be) from a jury of their peers. To be honest I know a lot of details in 6 self defence shootings and have personally attended one job where someone produced a firearm in self defence. In each case it was a an over reaction (in my opinion). The point they all showed was a reluctance to accept the verdict of 12 appropriately directed peers. You want to have the right to carry and use the weapons, you must also expect to have your decision scrutinised, and if necessary pay the price for that decision.

This is not to say that I don\'t know of other occasions when the shooting of someone was entirley justified.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
Now, the one consideration I would concede to over outright banning is training.
You need training and testing to drive a car, you should need it to own a gun.

This I absolutely agree with, and I think the NRA is putting itself in a less defensible position by not getting behind the idea.

\"My idea of gun control is being able to put two bullets through the same hole at fifty yards.\" - Jesse \"the governor\" Ventura (former Navy Seal)

 

[Legacy Account]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
...that\'s four personal experiences, in which my having a gun, put me in a far better position for myself, my shipmates or my loved ones, than if I had not had a gun.

From your experience of life, you may think you do not need a gun. That\'s fine.
I hope you never do need one.

From mine, I have learned I prefer to have one, and hope not to have to use it.

Now you know why Iran wants nuclear weapons....

 

[Ritual]

Is this round 2? :]

 

[Talion]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Originally posted by Evil Dave
...that\'s four personal experiences, in which my having a gun, put me in a far better position for myself, my shipmates or my loved ones, than if I had not had a gun.

From your experience of life, you may think you do not need a gun. That\'s fine.
I hope you never do need one.

From mine, I have learned I prefer to have one, and hope not to have to use it.

Now you know why Iran wants nuclear weapons....

And SpaceMunkie comes back with a blinder of an uppercut.

 

[matty1001]

Originally posted by Ritual
Is this round 2? :]

It\'ll be round 3, round 2 was after all the boobie pics. lol