Glad I\'m Not In School Anymore...

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by philologus
There\'s no doubts that parents should bear more responsibility than many do. However; having to choose which school to place their kids in and having to move when the little brats screw it up is a good incentive to be involved. Additionally competition would allow schools to charge additional tuition for \"problem\" students, frequent transfers etc. This removes the burden of teachers and other students from having to deal with disorderly students and their inadequate parents.

Man, I don\'t know where this idea arose that privatizing ANYTHING makes it better for people. To quote Lt. Ellen Ripley \"I don\'t know which species is worse. You don\'t see THEM screwing each other over for a goddamn percentage.\" Businesses are in business to make money. And usually to make the maximum possible profit, every quarter, all the time. Traditionally they try their damnedest to do this by providing the shittiest possible product/service, for the maximum sellable price. When they have to compete, they do so not by making the product better, but by trying to out-market (ie lie more convincingly than) the competition, or by dirty tricks, or by simply being big enough to loss-lead the other guy into bankruptcy.

If you think having pop machines and advertising in schools is bad now... imagine what it would be like in any private school that was affordable by the poor or lower middle class. Give me bureaucratic, stodgy government any day.

/rant off... hmm this thread brings out the Fark.com in me

 

[penguin]

I am quite respectful...

 

[MarkusTay]

Originally posted by No Such Agency

Man, I don\'t know where this idea arose that privatizing ANYTHING makes it better for people. <snip>

We had a road project on Long Island to widen the main Southern route across the island. It took close to 10 years to complete widening a section of road several miles long. After the project was completed, the local Gov\'t wanted to do the same thing to our main Northern route, but people screamed bloody murder because of the traffic tie-ups the last project caused (not to mention the millions of dollars it cost). So they decided to higher an outsidde company rather then use county employees(Out-of-state scabs). The result? The company came in with about 20% the people used by the county and finished the project in several MONTHS!

So you see, because of the sheer inefficiany of the Gov\'t and their need to play nice with every special interest group private companies can do the same work quicker and cheaper AND with less people.

\'NUFF SAID

 

[Wren]

Originally posted by Thecadian
edit:the link at the top dosnt work what is it about ....?

Geez, MSN didn\'t leave that link live very long. The original article outlined the methods various school districts use to handle bathroom breaks for students, given that it\'s impossible to have school staff in halls/bathrooms all the time. It mentioned such techniques as log books, hall passes and monitors and the like. A big focus of the article was on some school areas that give students a grade incentive for NOT using bathroom passes. So if you were able to hold it through that class for the year, you might get an extra 6% on your final grade. The students they talked to in grade competitive schools were very motivated to do that, despite the fact that holding it was distracting to them actually learning in class sometimes.

Like NSA, I\'m fairly troubled by this. I\'m not sure if it\'s because I\'m also Canadian, enjoy the freedom of going to the toilet fairly often if I need to, or I\'m just old, but there it is. I don\'t have kids, and I\'m not a teacher, so I realize that my POV on this is limited. From what I\'ve seen, I agree that parents don\'t seem as inclined to supervise or discipline children as I recall from my childhood. On the other hand, I\'ve seen quotations from Roman times to the present to the effect of an older generation saying the younger one has less respect/self-discipline/whatever and is out-of-control, so I have to wonder how much of that opinion is just part of the generation gap and how much is a measurable difference in behaviour as time goes on.

More and more I start to feel as if I went to school in some fairyland. Even at the time I was in high school (early 80\'s) from what I\'d see in American movies and TV shows they were already starting to have security guards and hardass Breakfast Club principals and whatnot. My US husband recalls hall monitors and passes in his schooling. I never had either, you\'d just raise your hand and ask to go to the bathroom or to your locker to get your book or whatever, and provided it wasn\'t too often or obvious shenanigans, off you went. They hired off-duty cops to be present at dances, but that\'s the only security I ever saw. Hell, we could freely smoke on school premises (and even in a designated hallway at said dances), they just asked that we do it around the side of the school so we wouldn\'t litter up the front.

I\'m not suggesting that kids be allowed to smoke at school, but to not allow them to use restrooms (or to give them overly compelling reasons not to, or to fail to provide enough hygenic facilities for them and some of the other issues raised in the thread) seems barbaric to me. (I\'m also with NSA on the questioning of privatization being the answer to everything, but that\'s probably the Canadian in me coming out again. )

 

[No Such Agency]

MarkusTay: that (shocking) anecdote is not representative of ALL government work any more than Enron is representative of ALL private businesses (though it is a lot like far too many publicly-traded corporations!). One road project stalled by god-knows-what doesn\'t even vaguely suggest that government should not be running the public school system. My concern is not that schools CANNOT be run well as private entities - look at all the private schools that provide an excellent education, for a hefty price. My concern is that schools WILL NOT be run well as private entities, at prices the less-affluent or poor can afford.

Wren: there\'s a Canadian in you, coming out? My \"Aliens\" reference may have been more appropriate than I realized

 

[philologus]

NSA: I\'m positive that the Canadian government is absolutely wonderful. There are, however many, great examples of privatization in this country (US) that are obviously better than govt. alternatives. I recently had to handle figures from the state of Georgia for a project on school funding. The schools in this state that had the highest Teacher pay rates and more $ in resources had the lowest grades AND lowest average scores on standardized testing. Govt. is rarely under constraints to do things efficiently or effectively. BECAUSE of the bottom line businesses are of necessity forced to find the best ways of doing things to survive.

In addition, we in the US are genetically distrustful of govt. (and those who are not should be) and highly contentious. To tell you the honest truth, I would rather operate under the basic, transparent assumption that my competitor/partner will undercut me for a buck. Behavior is more predictable that way. With the least amount of govt. involvement consumers will demand products that are higher quality (if that\'s what has value for them) or less expensive. In order to survive companies have to provide that.

If the governement would return the tax money that is extorted from us for \"schools\" then citizens could afford to send their kids to competing schools. It would also allow parents to choose schools that could be tailored to their child\'s needs. i.e. music-based schools; art schools, language etc....

 

[Wren]

Originally posted by No Such Agency
Wren: there\'s a Canadian in you, coming out? My \"Aliens\" reference may have been more appropriate than I realized

Yep, I go through more shirts that way, I tell ya!

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by MarkusTay
There is control, and then there is over-control. The problem is how much is too much, of either rules OR freedoms? Kids today are wildly out of control, and i hear them every day talking back to their parents, mine included. I would have NEVER talked to my father the way my kids sometimes do with me, and ALL the time do with their mother. Kids today have no respect what so ever, and do as they damn well please. As both a parent and ex-teacher (student teacher)

\"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint\" - Hesiod, 8th century B.C.


Gimme a break.....

If there is one thing powerful enough to draw me out of my retirement, it is an \"aged\" person bemoaning the state of either a) society or b) youth, today. Myopic, imo.

 

[beowulfthehunter]

As illustrated by the previous quote. We have a habit of thinking we are doomed by the next generation. Let me be the first to say they have potentail just like we did at that age. I think we just need faith. I recently ran into one of my PITA(pain in the @$$) students and he is now a personal trainer and is making more money then I am an d driving a better car.
All students have the potentail to do great things, but for now they just have to learn to hold it.

 

[Mr.S.Marbo]

I can\'t say I know what the solution is. I would say that teachers jobs have become a hell of a lot harder and I\'d say that kids have become less respectful of authority - whether that\'s down to your idea before NSA I don\'t know but it\'s certainly an interesting theory and is very logical.

I don\'t think that privatising schools is going to help and I have little faith in private companies getting involved in areas that were traditionally the domain of the government. Corporations are great for making cd players, tv\'s computers etc... but I doubt they are the right thing to trust with area\'s such as education.

As for being efficient and excellent in area\'s of \"government work\" it doesn\'t take long to dig up massive failings by private companies. Just take a look at one company in the UK that has been involved in education and prison services - Group 4 Falk (you might know them from those Group 4 Securitas vans that drive about in the UK). They have managed to / be:

-Get caught offering a bribe to private consultants employed by the government who were in charge of recommending what company should get a contract to help revitalise failing state schools.
-Get caught engaging in corrupt practices while applying for a secuirity contract with the European Union.
-Found guilty by an Industrial Tribunal of racial discrimination against job applicants applying for jobs in their privately run government asylum detention centre.
-Lose 7 prisoners in their care in just one week.
-Using unauthorised methods of restraint (against medical evidence and even the companies own rules) on average 150 times per month at one youth offenders detention centre.
-Make a 39% return on capital for running a prison while simultaneously receiving fines for \"failure to provide an acceptable service\" in that same prison.
-Have one of their prisons returned to the public sector because of staff shortages and inefficency.
-Found guilty of a \"lack of care\" on several occasions leading sometimes to death and sometimes to excessive use of un-necessary force against low risk already compliant prisoners.
-Having prisons they run condemned by the prisons inspectorate as rife with violence and drug abuse.

This big company like all other corporations is out there to make a profit and they will do this at the expense of providing quality services. This might not be a problem if it only means that the cd player or that tv you bought turned out to be crap. But if you are in charge of childrens futures and care then it gets a bit more serious.

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by beowulfthehunter
As illustrated by the previous quote. We have a habit of thinking we are doomed by the next generation. Let me be the first to say they have potentail just like we did at that age. I think we just need faith. I recently ran into one of my PITA(pain in the @$$) students and he is now a personal trainer and is making more money then I am an d driving a better car.
All students have the potentail to do great things, but for now they just have to learn to hold it.

Um actually I think the boomers are dooming us to hell.

But thats just me.

 

[philologus]

S. Marbo:
The difference between govt. and private entities is this:

Some companies may have bad, amoral, criminal leaders. Politicians are almost always bad, amoral or criminal.

I sent my children to private school for many years. The level of education received was far superior and the cost was about what I currently pay in school taxes annually. If the govt. would refund the school tax money more people could make the same choice.

 

[Legacy Account]

Damn straight. Private schools piss on most state schools here in the UK. The vast majority of good state schools are in highly affluent areas that parents have to be resident in if they want their kids to attend that school.

We already have a totally split education system in this country - if you are comfortable or well off, your kids will almost always do well. If you live in the wrong area, well let\'s just say that not much teaching goes on in some of those schools.

Ever more Draconian rules in school are utterly pointless. A simple set that are rigidly enforced with PROPER recriminations are what is needed. Unfortunately the punishment very rarely fits the crime these days.....

 

[Swordwind]

Let me put it this way. In my Archaeology class textbooks are £18 each. We either have to buy one ourselves or share a old, tatty, smashed to bits one thats been handed down from class to class. The private school my teacher subbed for a few days at all had brandnew copies and were tearing pages out and gluing them on the wall as posters.

Its not fair :~(

 

[Orchid Noir]

Originally posted by Swordwind
Let me put it this way. In my Archaeology class textbooks are £18 each. We either have to buy one ourselves or share a old, tatty, smashed to bits one thats been handed down from class to class. The private school my teacher subbed for a few days at all had brandnew copies and were tearing pages out and gluing them on the wall as posters.

Its not fair :~(

Umm.. until new editions come out, here in this part of the US the books are hand-me down copies that are assigned to a student. The over pricing of these text books can be incredible (I remember a 6 year old math book lost in middle school that cost us $65 :flame: ), no matter the condition they are in by the time they are checked out to a student, add to this that any teacher, any given year, can decide that the student in possession is the one responsible for damages to the book, and that book STAYS in circulation for this to happen again later...

Top all of that off with the fact that (when I was still a student) maybe 75% of the books were outdated and much of the info obsolete in the \"real world\" by the time they even made it to press and got distributed.

This all being public school experiences, my private school experiences were MUCH different... I was bumped up THREE grade levels when I switched over to public education, and was still so bored by the coverage of things I had already learned that it was near torture.

I homeschool my son due to the state of the educational system. I place the accountability for the state of things squarely on the shoulders of the parents and, especially, the administrative levels. I have no respect for the \"teacher\" that is there because it is all they could do, but incredible respect for the teacher that is there because, no matter the short pay, long hours, personal out of pockets for good supplies, etc... they have a passion to try to give a good education and a promising future to thier students.

Too many parents see school as a way to keep thier kids out of thier hair, and a way to shunt the responsibility for thier children\'s actions onto someone else.

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by Orchid Noir
I have no respect for the \"teacher\" that is there because it is all they could do, but incredible respect for the teacher that is there because, no matter the short pay, long hours, personal out of pockets for good supplies, etc... they have a passion to try to give a good education and a promising future to thier students.

Well said. Thankfully there are not so many of the former type... though I think a few of the latter type have had the joy of teaching driven out of them by years of disrespectful kids, parents, administrators, and governments.

 

[beowulfthehunter]

What realy pisses me off about American schools is the priority put on athletics over acedemics.
I will be the first to admit that I have struggled to find work, but when I did I was constantly staying after school and working on lessons but yet there are teachers who hardly teach, constantly show movies and just could not care because they know as long as thye have a good season wrestling/football, no one will care if their kids do not learn.
I cannot tell you how fustrated I am in finding a job because every school is looking for Coaches, Coaches, Coaches and I want to teach, teach, teach. It pains me to go to Family reunions and be the one with the most education and have no real job.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by beowulfthehunter
What realy pisses me off about American schools is the priority put on athletics over acedemics.
I will be the first to admit that I have struggled to find work, but when I did I was constantly staying after school and working on lessons but yet there are teachers who hardly teach, constantly show movies and just could not care because they know as long as thye have a good season wrestling/football, no one will care if their kids do not learn.
I cannot tell you how fustrated I am in finding a job because every school is looking for Coaches, Coaches, Coaches and I want to teach, teach, teach. It pains me to go to Family reunions and be the one with the most education and have no real job.

Another benefit of privatization would be the competition and higher pay for good teachers. Teachers whose performance is sub-par would be paid less or find themselves unemployed. In addition; all the foolish news stories and court cases surrounding Harry Potter books in the library, or curriculum choices could be ameliorated because the furor is really over what tax dollars are funding. Just like the tired debates about \"what is art?\" The debate becomes less acrid when my tax dollars are not funding \"art\". If an \"artist\" thinks a crucifix suspended in urine is art; it doesn\'t bother me as long as I\'m not paying for it. The school would have to cater to the customer\'s needs/wants.

 

[funnymouth]

Originally posted by philologus

If the governement would return the tax money that is extorted from us for \"schools\" then citizens could afford to send their kids to competing schools. It would also allow parents to choose schools that could be tailored to their child\'s needs. i.e. music-based schools; art schools, language etc....

wait? are you pro voucher? i completely disagree with privatization of education. a few thoughts come to mind: corporate education? inequity of educational access? socioeconomic repercussions (\"the gap\")? indentured servitude ?

p.s. i love school! masters student and working hard towards a PHD.

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by funnymouth

Originally posted by philologus

If the governement would return the tax money that is extorted from us for \"schools\" then citizens could afford to send their kids to competing schools. It would also allow parents to choose schools that could be tailored to their child\'s needs. i.e. music-based schools; art schools, language etc....

wait? are you pro voucher? i completely disagree with privatization of education. a few thoughts come to mind: corporate education? inequity of educational access? socioeconomic repercussions (\"the gap\")? indentured servitude ?

p.s. i love school! masters student and working hard towards a PHD.

I hate the idea of vouchers. We should entirely eliminate the department of education. In the US we spend $11,700 on each student. I spent alittle more than $2000 per kid when I sent mine to private school (same time period). Give me back my tax money and let me choose where to send my children. The insanity that some times passes for education in taxpayer funded money pits is ridiculous. and its just a fact that governement will always be less efficient than the private sector.