green stuff
Active member
I guess it\'s just my lack of faith in humanity that\'s speaking there
.I agree 100% on that one though
.
I AM FED UP
- Thread starter Albert Moreto Font
- Start date
..
Orb
procrastinator
Originally posted by green stuff
Unfortunately, I\'m not so sure of that now. It be nice to be able to see a graph on how votes are distributed for a mini. If they vote massively X* points under the mean score, the anti-sniper software tends to still not notice them.
I\'m quite surprised Albert with all the trophies and general praise you get on your art that you still let yourself be affected by the snipers\' attitude. Cheer up and show them right with your next mini
* : people who have been sniped intelligently will know what the value is.
[edit]Damn, Anders beat me to it
I\'d realised that tactic but didn\'t want to mention it!!!!!
Glad you\'ll stay Albert......good decision
Rob
(Einion - glad u drew attention to the wolfen; voted and commented)
What an excellent summation of all the issues involved! But I think there is a solution. It\'s a standard statistical technique called Standard Deviation. A simple analysis of the votes can pick out those that don\'t fall within the \'norm\', and remove those votes from the overall score. So, if 10 people vote 9, and one prick votes 6, that \'6\' can be identified and removed. It works with 10 people voting 6, and one voting with 9 too.Originally posted by green stuff
I\'d like to know what you are suggesting?
...
If it\'s weed out the 5, 6, and 7s when the mini is in the 8-9 area, then it wouldn\'t be fair because people would get all their friends to vote high as soon as possible.
If it\'s show a distribution graph so we can figure out if the mini is being sniped or not, then I think it would make the best of both worlds, that way you could report the pic and an admin/moderator could see what to do about the snipe scores (but then again, they\'re already busy enough as is
The voting is already logged, since the site knows exactly what minis I\'ve voted on, the average score and the number of votes I\'ve made per mini. Whether each vote is kept or just my average, it does not matter. But the data are already there.
No more sniping, no more friends. But whether this is feasible with the CMON software, only Chern Ann or Borg could answer that.
Arjay
Member
I just can\'t see a problem with logging votes. Sniping would be reduced, retaliatory voting would be plainly obvious as would the opposite and checking the log and seeing that your favourite painter gave you a nice score would be very encouraging. Can anyone point out a downside to it?
Dragon Forge Design
New member
Yeah I have to admit the whole voting thing is a pain.. I wish there was a way to post a figure and check a box..no votes..id be happy to show work and receive comments than to se some little snot who doesnt want me to pass him by in the ranks to go and vote me down.
Sometimes I think the worst snipers are the ones above you in the ranks cause they dont want to see their rank drop and they know no one will know they did it.
NOw Im off to go see if I can raise your score with a vote
Sometimes I think the worst snipers are the ones above you in the ranks cause they dont want to see their rank drop and they know no one will know they did it.
NOw Im off to go see if I can raise your score with a vote
I can sympathize with your frustrations, Albert. In the past month or so, I\'ve dropped some 50-60 points in the ratings to snipers. They seem to come out from under their rocks every time I get a miniature above 8.5. (Which, ironically, was the cutoff for the annual).8)
The last mini I posted---some have told me my best to date, started at the top of my top five to eventually not being in my top five at all.
The last four miniatures I\'ve painted I didn\'t bother posting out, as the comments I receive generally have no substance----and the pieces become immediate targets to the \"sniping\".
I\'m just waiting on this one to drop into the \"7\" range:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/100939
Where at one time I was excited about posting work out, I\'ve grown so ambivalent to the prospect that I say to myself \"why bother?\"
Regardless, I\'m with Arjay on the point the system needs some revamping. What that answer is, I don\'t know.
I just want to be excited about putting my work out here again.
Today, I\'m not excited about it at all---to the point of total indifference.
The last mini I posted---some have told me my best to date, started at the top of my top five to eventually not being in my top five at all.
The last four miniatures I\'ve painted I didn\'t bother posting out, as the comments I receive generally have no substance----and the pieces become immediate targets to the \"sniping\".
I\'m just waiting on this one to drop into the \"7\" range:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/100939
Where at one time I was excited about posting work out, I\'ve grown so ambivalent to the prospect that I say to myself \"why bother?\"
Regardless, I\'m with Arjay on the point the system needs some revamping. What that answer is, I don\'t know.
I just want to be excited about putting my work out here again.
Today, I\'m not excited about it at all---to the point of total indifference.
Legacy Account
Active member
I think your main problem here will have been that sodding Top Ten Last 7 Days thing. It\'s a bloody nightmare with people slapping each others minis about just for the sake of a stupid placing on it. I\'d happily see that gone.
It\'s got much harder to get top scores too. A mini really needs to kick some serious arse to get over even a 9.2 or 9.3 these days.
The voting system is immensely flawed, but it\'s the same for everyone. Bollocks to the rankings and the snipers I say - you\'re the one with the Golden Demon collection!
Either that, or garner a huge set of fans on other forums!
It\'s got much harder to get top scores too. A mini really needs to kick some serious arse to get over even a 9.2 or 9.3 these days.
The voting system is immensely flawed, but it\'s the same for everyone. Bollocks to the rankings and the snipers I say - you\'re the one with the Golden Demon collection!
Either that, or garner a huge set of fans on other forums!
O
orctrader
Guest
Please carry on posting. I like to see your work.
As for sniping I think that even at my level I have been a victim of it, possibly because when I submit something new I post to other forums where, I discovered recently, there can be an \"anti-CMON\" bias.
If there is a \"software solution\" to sniping and the opposite - lots of friends - then that would be good. However, as I don\'t get hung up over either ranking or individual scores I will continue to post my stuff here and stay pretty relaxed about the whole thing.
Oh, and just to say again Please carry on posting. I like to see your work.
As for sniping I think that even at my level I have been a victim of it, possibly because when I submit something new I post to other forums where, I discovered recently, there can be an \"anti-CMON\" bias.
If there is a \"software solution\" to sniping and the opposite - lots of friends - then that would be good. However, as I don\'t get hung up over either ranking or individual scores I will continue to post my stuff here and stay pretty relaxed about the whole thing.
Oh, and just to say again Please carry on posting. I like to see your work.
Voting is already logged, it\'s just not publicly viewable.
Making the votes public would probably make people less inclined to vote honestly. They\'d rather vote a little high, so as not to hurt the poster\'s feelings, or to appear to be \'nice\' people. Friends of the poster would again vote high, lest a low vote upset the friendship.
And what about voting wars? You voted low on mine, so I\'ll vote low on yours. You sniped me, I\'ll snipe you right back. Bah!
Albert, man... why do you get so wound up about this? Your painting is great! You rock some serious ass! Now some kid comes by and tells you that you suck. You wouldn\'t argue with the kid, just smile and get on with it. Why not do the same here?
I don\'t think people even think about this at times. take me. I paint as well as mackerels run thermonuclear reactors. In the last what, 2 or 3 years? Or 4 already? Soemwhat like that. In the last few years, my CMON score has not increased by a single point. I absolutely suck.
Yet I have been sniped several times. On my Ardokath I counted the votes. I got four ones in the first 50 votes. Now I know this miniature is not good, but it\'s not a one.
I forgot where I was actually going with this rant, just ignore it.
I don\'t think people even think about this at times. take me. I paint as well as mackerels run thermonuclear reactors. In the last what, 2 or 3 years? Or 4 already? Soemwhat like that. In the last few years, my CMON score has not increased by a single point. I absolutely suck.
Yet I have been sniped several times. On my Ardokath I counted the votes. I got four ones in the first 50 votes. Now I know this miniature is not good, but it\'s not a one.
I forgot where I was actually going with this rant, just ignore it.
I totally sympathise Albert. I don\'t think it\'s so much that I feel bad that a mini ended up lower than I know it should be. It\'s the fact that someone is taking their time to perform a negative act towards me. Whatever their motivations are, it is a negative act. And the question is if this keeps up, why should artists keep posting top work here?
In the past it might get recognition and advancement of the hobby as a LOT of people do see those 9.5+\'s but once you\'re down to 9 the mini sort of ends up below the radar so to speak, and posting other places than here would be better.
I guess the end result is that the artist is then again faced with the question, why post on cmon? Sure it\'s nice to have an online galery (although you can get those 100 places), but now the main thing you end up taking away is the feeling of these negative acts toward you and your work. Sure forum goers seem to enjoy the works and offer support and praise...but then why not just choose a forum to post on that is free of the voting negativity?
You might say that not posting is letting the sniper win...but honestly I don\'t want to fight my own stubborn war against them. The bottom line is I participate where I enjoy participating. The situation of voting on cmon is getting worse and is progressing to the point I can\'t see much any point of posting here over some other forum free of this negativity. I think the idea of cmon is outstanding, however, the exicution of the idea is slipping right now to the point of the negative outweighing the possitive.
As for solutions:
- I don\'t think we can institute something that gives borg more work, as even the smallest thing along these lines, multiplied by 60,000 photos quickly becomes overwhelming, so it has to be built in.
- I don\'t think there should be readily accessable voting logs, as this would cause so many useless voting politics, clicks, and voting wars as to make the site unusable.
- I do think you should have to be logged in to vote, we know the site keeps track of your votes when you\'re logged in...so even the idea of snipers feeling like they\'re been tracked, so to speak, would work as a deterent.
- I do think you should still be able to vote on 1 mini multiple times, HOWEVER, with stronger restrictions than right now. Perhaps you must vote on 25, 50, 100 minis before you can vote again...or have a real life timer...or something!
- There is also statistical sollutions, complex as they may be. Standard deviation may be one of them. I\'m not going to get technical but there are methods of determining essentually what the voting curve should look like, and eliminate votes outside the expectation of the curve. Once you get to about 100 observations, there are methods to eliminate smart sniping with a smarter program. (of course someone with a dynamic IP could potentially create enough observations to throw this off as well)
Anyway, I say ignoring it is not the solution. Saying to not pay attention to it means the snipers win I say. That takes away from the enjoyment of this site, and losing that means artists leave as other sites become more enjoyable to participate in than here. Albert is justified in his feelings I think, many have them. It\'s getting worse and no amount of trying to talk away the problem changes things. Artists on the site will start to (continue to?) leave, I know I\'m getting closer.
In the past it might get recognition and advancement of the hobby as a LOT of people do see those 9.5+\'s but once you\'re down to 9 the mini sort of ends up below the radar so to speak, and posting other places than here would be better.
I guess the end result is that the artist is then again faced with the question, why post on cmon? Sure it\'s nice to have an online galery (although you can get those 100 places), but now the main thing you end up taking away is the feeling of these negative acts toward you and your work. Sure forum goers seem to enjoy the works and offer support and praise...but then why not just choose a forum to post on that is free of the voting negativity?
You might say that not posting is letting the sniper win...but honestly I don\'t want to fight my own stubborn war against them. The bottom line is I participate where I enjoy participating. The situation of voting on cmon is getting worse and is progressing to the point I can\'t see much any point of posting here over some other forum free of this negativity. I think the idea of cmon is outstanding, however, the exicution of the idea is slipping right now to the point of the negative outweighing the possitive.
As for solutions:
- I don\'t think we can institute something that gives borg more work, as even the smallest thing along these lines, multiplied by 60,000 photos quickly becomes overwhelming, so it has to be built in.
- I don\'t think there should be readily accessable voting logs, as this would cause so many useless voting politics, clicks, and voting wars as to make the site unusable.
- I do think you should have to be logged in to vote, we know the site keeps track of your votes when you\'re logged in...so even the idea of snipers feeling like they\'re been tracked, so to speak, would work as a deterent.
- I do think you should still be able to vote on 1 mini multiple times, HOWEVER, with stronger restrictions than right now. Perhaps you must vote on 25, 50, 100 minis before you can vote again...or have a real life timer...or something!
- There is also statistical sollutions, complex as they may be. Standard deviation may be one of them. I\'m not going to get technical but there are methods of determining essentually what the voting curve should look like, and eliminate votes outside the expectation of the curve. Once you get to about 100 observations, there are methods to eliminate smart sniping with a smarter program. (of course someone with a dynamic IP could potentially create enough observations to throw this off as well)
Anyway, I say ignoring it is not the solution. Saying to not pay attention to it means the snipers win I say. That takes away from the enjoyment of this site, and losing that means artists leave as other sites become more enjoyable to participate in than here. Albert is justified in his feelings I think, many have them. It\'s getting worse and no amount of trying to talk away the problem changes things. Artists on the site will start to (continue to?) leave, I know I\'m getting closer.
Albert Moreto Font
Member
That\'s exactly what i tried to mean. I will keep posting, its ok, but with no real interest on it. I mean, i spend months on my golden demon entries, and the trophy and recognition is what is really important, but its nice to show you people. Then, its so sad when you post them that some stupid people is rating you bad just to f*ck you up.
I dont know the solution, but a mixture of everything you have said could be!
Albert Moreto Font
Member
well im still a kid in some way
TOMORROW I TURN 18!!
borg
Administrator
It is frustrating. I totally understand, and Top10last7 is about the most violent place ever. With growth comes problems. That is true with every organization.
I still avocate that if everyone votes, the snipers will be less effective.
But we are looking into the possibility of voting only allowed when logged on. This way, votes will be logged just like comments. I am not sure if that can be implemented, but we are looking into it. The sheer amount of votes might make that impossible, but then again, if votes are only allowed when logged on, then the total number of votes might drop too. So, we shall see what happens. It is all a matter of what the server can handle. Ideas don\'t always equal functionality.
I still avocate that if everyone votes, the snipers will be less effective.
But we are looking into the possibility of voting only allowed when logged on. This way, votes will be logged just like comments. I am not sure if that can be implemented, but we are looking into it. The sheer amount of votes might make that impossible, but then again, if votes are only allowed when logged on, then the total number of votes might drop too. So, we shall see what happens. It is all a matter of what the server can handle. Ideas don\'t always equal functionality.
That sounds like a good idea! Seems like an easy(ish) fix without requiring major changes. Just because the vote is logged doesn\'t mean it needs to be public or anything...But then if an issue does arrise, it might be easier to see a certain person voted 30 times a 6 on a otherwise 9 ranked mini.
Borg I know you\'ll do your best, you do great work here.
Albert Moreto Font
Member
yes but who tells you snippers are outsiders? (not members i mean)
