It\'s not our fault...

[Godlikebuthumble]

I think if NHS are to pay for IVF, there shoud not be any judgement on their part regarding couples with one partner infertile or same-sex couples. The argument that a lesbian \"can just go get laid like everybody else\" just stinks. So if you\'re a woman and your husband is infertile, you could just say: \"Tough bollocks, lady, go get laid by another guy!\" Don\'t work. Founding a family implies a choice of one\'s partner (the anonymity of IVF won\'t leave you feeling as bad, I reckon). So either everyone is eligible for IVF, or nobody is (health issues like obesity or genetic defects and stuff aside).
Of course, gay couples and infertile ones should at least consider the possibility of adoption, because, as Hoblit put it, there are enough kids nobody else wants out there. Still, application for adoption is even more trying than one for IVF, at least around here...

My two €cents

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by automaton
... I do know that having children can be an extremely important and meaningful thing for many people. The right to \'found a family\' is also one of the basic human right in the UN declaration on human rights I believe. Being in a situation where one cannot have children can be a very traumatic and devaluing experience.

I\'m sorry, but this begs a flippant comment: send them to psychiatrists if they want to feel good about themselves!

Originally posted by automaton
Denying people the chance to have children - whether as a result of infertility, same-sex relationshops or whatever - simply because they cannot afford the medical procedure/s, seems unfair and unjust to me.

Has a person, by being in a same-sex relationship, not denied themselves that right? Infertility and biological compatibility are two different things.

Originally posted by steelcult
Where does one draw the line then? If I have a right to found a family, do I have the right to force someone else to carry that baby, because my partner can\'t?

Why should I as taxpayer be responsible to see to it that you can breed successfully?

And if it is everyone\'s \"right\" to found a family and have children...

I agree 100% I am sick to death of hearing about human rights. Anyone who enforces their rights, almost always infringes on the rights of others. I prefer human duties and human responsibilities, where each of us are responsible for how our actions affect other people.

 

[automaton]

Originally posted by Modderrhu

Originally posted by automaton
Denying people the chance to have children - whether as a result of infertility, same-sex relationshops or whatever - simply because they cannot afford the medical procedure/s, seems unfair and unjust to me.

Has a person, by being in a same-sex relationship, not denied themselves that right? Infertility and biological compatibility are two different things.

Well I think this really comes down to a different question: does a person choose to be homosexual? If you accept that homosexuality is a result of factors outside an individual\'s control - be it genetics, environment or whatever - rather than a lifestyle choice, then it can\'t really be said that a same-sex relationship is chosen..at least in the sense that you mean I think. A same-sex relationship would be the only choice for a homosexual, in the way that a heterosexual relationship would be the only choice for a heterosexual...if you know what I mean.

So if it is said that a person denies themself the right to have children by being in a same-sex relationship, it seems to me that this also says that a homosexual person denies themself the right to have children simply by being homosexual...but how can they deny themself that right, if being homosexual was not something they chose in the first place? If you follow me...this is getting complicated to explain, I don\'t think I am expressing myself clearly!

 

[supervike]

These is some of the things that I think make a National Health Care plan awfully scary.


It also boggles my mind how easily Fathers are discounted as of any importance to a growing child.

 

[penguin]

*jumps down off the fence and onto the soapbox*

All a bit mystifying for me, but here goes:

~ People can not and do not have any choice about their sexuality. Period :]

~ I have a cousin who is a lesbian, and she is ecstatic to have two young children. If she and her girlfriend want children as much as any heterosexual couple, then I don\'t see why they should have to pay any more than any heterosexual couple. Seems to me there must have been lesbian/gay couples throughout human history, they never would have bee able to have children, but now that we have the means I think we should use them if it makes people happy.

That\'s it from me, leave the taxes out of it because I don\'t earn money and don\'t really understand them

~Bill

 

[Modderrhu]

Originally posted by automaton
So if it is said that a person denies themself the right to have children by being in a same-sex relationship, it seems to me that this also says that a homosexual person denies themself the right to have children simply by being homosexual...but how can they deny themself that right, if being homosexual was not something they chose in the first place? If you follow me...this is getting complicated to explain, I don\'t think I am expressing myself clearly!

No, I know exactly what you mean. Indeed, I was thinking these same thoughts as I wrote what I did. Whether a person is homosexual by choice or by genetics is still an outstanding question. The answer to that question will put an end to countless arguments, such as, \"It\'s not our fault...\" Science, philosophy and legislature all want the answer to that question. It is my tendency to believe it is choice, but that doesn\'t mean I am right.

Yet no matter which way the answer swings (to the left, to the right, or both ), I still believe in human duties before human rights. The legions of human rights would make each of us responsible for a gay person\'s choice, or for what nature gave them. And I say \'nature\', not their parents, lest parents get blamed for their offspring\'s homosexuality.

 

[Avelorn]

Well I have a greeting for you from someone I know..

here you go

 

[wiccanpony]

???The world is full of children who need homes...to both sides, adoption!

What makes your genes soooooo special that you need to toss them into the general pool.:cussing:

 

[Duende]

**WARNING*** rant ahead :cussing:

I\'ve been bored at work and have been reading all the old \"Dear Abby\" columns, and in one she states that NEVER in all the letters she\'s ever recieved, or that her mother (who was Dear Abby before her) reciceved from homosexuals ever said that they CHOSE to be gay. Gays DO NOT make a choice to be gay any more than you made a choice to be heterosexual.
Do you remember some point during puberty if somebody asked you, \"OK, now that you\'re growing up, you have to choose if you\'re going to like boys or girls. So after you choose, your chosen sex will create lustful feelings in you and haunt your daydreams and sleeping dreams. OK pick now.\"
It\'s not a choice anymore than choosing the race you are born as. Next time you think to tell a gay person to get psychiatric \"help\" to become \"normal\", why not just go tell a black person \"Hey, skin bleaching techniques are possible now! You can choose to be white!\"

And I am also angry over the insensitivity of DaN\'s comment that \"if lesbians want a baby - why not just get drunk and get laid the old fashioned way?\" I had a friend who was 100% lesbian, she was completely grossed out by the thought of heterosexual sex that it made her sick to her stomach. If she ever got drunk at a party, it would not make her want to have sex with a man any more than you, Dan.

As to the physical fitness issue? That\'s a hard call since it calls into question, where do you draw the line? Is it going to cause a new kind of discrimation? Weight discrimation? What if a woman with a terminal illness wanted to have a child before she passed but her husband was infertile?

I do agree adopting whould be a great choice, but from what I hear it\'s even more expensive than fertility treatments. Maybe the government should help give people breaks in that area? Maybe, pass on the free IVF treatment and get half-off on adoption costs?

OK, now that the steam from my ears has cleared, I\'ll stop ranting.

 

[Torn blue sky]

Mine are so special i\'m holding on to them. Like EB said, MY toy money!
Besides I know theres people around here who really shouldn\'t be allowed to breed! There should be a law agaist the creation of idiocy...

*ed* I don\'t mean to offend Duende, but wouldn\'t it be a bit insensitive for the adopted children to be \"Half price kids\"?
I can partly understand the want to have your own genetic material out there in the world, but also partly think thats pretty damn selfish.
I think its wiser to give the existing life on this earth a chance before creating more.
Geneticly your child or not, their needs are just the same, and they did want a child didn\'t they? This has \"playground senario\" written all over it. \"My dolls better cuz it\'s new, not a hand me down like yours!\".
I think it\'s time to open minds, all across the board.

 

[penguin]

Originally posted by Duende
**WARNING*** rant ahead :cussing:

I\'ve been bored at work and have been reading all the old \"Dear Abby\" columns, and in one she states that NEVER in all the letters she\'s ever recieved, or that her mother (who was Dear Abby before her) reciceved from homosexuals ever said that they CHOSE to be gay. Gays DO NOT make a choice to be gay any more than you made a choice to be heterosexual.
Do you remember some point during puberty if somebody asked you, \"OK, now that you\'re growing up, you have to choose if you\'re going to like boys or girls. So after you choose, your chosen sex will create lustful feelings in you and haunt your daydreams and sleeping dreams. OK pick now.\"
It\'s not a choice anymore than choosing the race you are born as. Next time you think to tell a gay person to get psychiatric \"help\" to become \"normal\", why not just go tell a black person \"Hey, skin bleaching techniques are possible now! You can choose to be white!\"

Exactly. A point made better than mine I don\'t think anyone read it because it was the last post on the first page (never mind, it often happens lol) Being a practical lad, I have a book about puberty which has been very helpful :innocent: I\'m all sussed out now. In said book it states very clearly that it is not a choice, and \"pretending\" you\'re not gay (by trying to have heterosexual relationships) will lead to deep unhappiness. It is sad that people can feel that way because of the negative peer pressure that there is surrounding the issue.

 

[matty1001]

Its like how Eddie Izzard never told people at school that he was a TV, on a cunning survival plan! Because you get hit with sticks!!

 

[Modderrhu]

Maybe this wasn\'t directed at me, but going through the thread, it\'s my post that sticks out for the most criticism, so, here goes...

Originally posted by Duende
I\'ve been bored at work and have been reading all the old \"Dear Abby\" columns, and in one she states that NEVER in all the letters she\'s ever recieved, or that her mother (who was Dear Abby before her) reciceved from homosexuals ever said that they CHOSE to be gay. Gays DO NOT make a choice to be gay any more than you made a choice to be heterosexual.

Okay, accepted. As I said, I have a tendency to believe it is a choice, as opposed to being genetic. You do know what \"tendency\" means, right? I already accepted that I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Duende
Do you remember some point during puberty if somebody asked you, \"OK, now that you\'re growing up, you have to choose if you\'re going to like boys or girls. So after you choose, your chosen sex will create lustful feelings in you and haunt your daydreams and sleeping dreams. OK pick now.\"

lol Disregarding your sarcasm, I actually do remember a teacher at school saying, \"It\'s alright to be gay, if that is what you want.\"

Edit: Hmmm, come to think of it, is it by choice or by genes that someone will lust after children? (Whether a practising paedophile, or a tortured soul gazing longingly at the children leaving a school, but never giving in to the lust) You\'re right, Michelle, where do we draw the line? Seriously now, where do we draw the line? And before anyone gets upset that I\'m comparing gay people and paedophiles, that\'s not so, I am questioning the mechanisms that we use to determine what is and isn\'t socially acceptable.

Hehehe, clearly I don\'t live up to the higher liberal standards, have little respect for political correctness and I\'m a bigot. Or maybe I\'m just someone who couldn\'t give a rat\'s arse about whether I ever have a child or not. Can\'t blame me, though, it\'s in my genes.

 

[Infidel Castro]

Blimey, this one kicked off lol

I think my view on the matter in as close to a nutshell as possible is that the route to be taken has to be hard line. Either IVF for all or none at all. It\'s a bugger to get my head round, but the way I see it is that lesbians (even assuming they have no choice of sexuality - which I tend towards) still have no right to IVF from a government funded health system. Okay, it\'s not their fault, but it certainly ain\'t mine as a tax payer. I can understand how difficult an issue it must be (or at least think I understand) for those in a position to want kids but not have them due to their orientation (biologically - what a mine field!) but the lottery of biochemistry and the way we are formed/conceived genetically-speaking is something out of the hands of the NHS.

Cor blimey, what a shitter of a scenario!

 

[finn17]

I just thought I\'d drag things down a bit...

I honestly don\'t care what people do, as long as it doesn\'t have an adverse effect upon others.

People talk about the right to have children as though they are a lifestyle choice in themselves. \"If I want to get my tongue pierced then I will\".

Having a child impacts upon society as a whole. I chose not to have children, I don\'t mind contributing to other people\'s personal breeding programmes, but there has to be a limit! People are being denied life-saving procedures in this country because there is not enough money. My own local, Healthcare Trust is 5 million in the red and is making front-line staff redundant. On top of this we have a desperate requirement for adoptive parents and foster parents that we just can\'\'t meet.

It\'s not a perfect world and we have to prioritise. IMO having \'your own\' children is not a necessity, it is a luxury.....

 

[Modderrhu]

I think I\'ll just shut up now and let finn say all the right things for me. Bravo, old chap, Bravo!

 

[Torn blue sky]

I second that. Hear hear.
And while i\'m at it; Bingo-Bongo.
No reason, I just like hearing myself say it.

 

[No Such Agency]

Originally posted by Ogrebane
Well I am on your side Rev. In Oz the same thing has happened already. I mean if someone want to make a valid lifestyle choice of being in a gay relation ship then hey should take the consequences of that relationship which is that they cant have children.

The \"lifestyle\" IS a choice - the choice to live as who they are instead of pretending to be heterosexuals. Man, give me a hundred openly gay parents over one who is desperately hiding it from their spouse and kids...

Originally posted by Modderrhu
come to think of it, is it by choice or by genes that someone will lust after children? (Whether a practising paedophile, or a tortured soul gazing longingly at the children leaving a school, but never giving in to the lust) You\'re right, Michelle, where do we draw the line? Seriously now, where do we draw the line? And before anyone gets upset that I\'m comparing gay people and paedophiles, that\'s not so, I am questioning the mechanisms that we use to determine what is and isn\'t socially acceptable.

Well, that\'s easy. If you have sex with kids, animals, or anybody else who is generally believed to be incapable of consenting properly... that is wrong. That\'s the major difference, since homosexuality involves two consenting adults who we trust to make many other decisions... That\'s where you draw the line.

Should the NHS/Medicare etc. fund gay couples\' aspirations of parenthood? In spite of what I just said, I\'m not sure. If hetero couples\' IVF is funded, then so should gay couples\'. If not... hmm. But I do think gay couples should be as able to adopt as hetero ones - this discrimination stuff is just 19th century judgmental morality at work.

 

[finn17]

Hmmm...

Originally posted by No Such Agency
- this discrimination stuff is just 19th century judgmental morality at work.

You mean 1900 years was too short a time to form an opinion?:innocent:

Sorry, I am being a little flippant.

I repeat, people can have kids by the truckload for all I care as long as I am not expected to pay for them...

Whilst I am down here, I might also add that those special damn parking bays for parents with small children also get my goat. Why should you get privileged parking because you can\'t remember to take your pill or wear a bloody condom??? I would never dream of parking in a disabled bay but I flout this all the time and just long for those occasions when I am taken to task for it...:innocent:

 

[Lucifeil]

This infertility problem that they are having is just mother natures way of saying \"Hey, there are too many of you. Stop it.\"
I think people need to take that hint from nature and quite having so manny babies before the whole world ends up more populated than China.

And, as for the gay people, they should be just like treated like everyone else.