"Modern art" ??

Chrome

New member
This definitely reminds me of when that performance artist had a show in Umeå a few years ago... She's made a thing out of peeing on public floors and on this particular show a guy runs up to her and 'steals' her piss right in the middle of the 'show' and then offers it to the audience to taste. Outrageous! :rotfl:

Here's a google-translated article about it:
I'd so love to get paid for this stuff
 

freakinacage

Well-known member
I try to think of it this way, if a picture is worth a thousand words, it shouldn't take a thousand words to explain a picture.

touché sir!

ahh the interpretation of art, gotta love it:

A couple attending an art exhibition at the National Gallery were staring at a portrait that had them completely confused. The painting depicted three very black and totally naked men sitting on a park bench. Two of the figures had black penises, but the one in the middle had a pink penis.

The curator of the gallery realized that they were having trouble interpreting the painting and offered his assessment. He went on for nearly half an hour explaining how it depicted the sexual emasculation of African Americans in a predominately white, patriarchal society. “In fact,” he pointed out, “some serious critics believe that the pink penis also reflects the cultural and sociological oppression experienced by gay men in contemporary society.”

After the curator left, a Scottish man approached the couple and said: “Would you like to know what the painting is really about?”

“Now why would you claim to be more of an expert than the curator of the gallery?” asked the couple.

“Because I’m the guy who painted it,” he replied. “In fact,there’s no African Americans depicted at all. They’re just three Scottish coal-miners. The guy in the middle went home for lunch.”
 

Tarreknoire

Member
eye of the beholder

each to their own

beauty is held in the eye of the be holder

- UK TV had a program on an auction house recently, the lead auctioneer went out and hunted pieces he felt were 'artworks'
These ranged from pieces of "body matter" rolled into a balls 2 and 3 inches in size.. and these sold for $42,000 approx each... not exactly everyone cup of tea
To a "new concept" of "Toy Art" - for example 'Manga' images made into 3D solid objectives - into miniatures some of which was scaled 30mm high and some were 8feet in height... and these were labled as "Modern Art"

In my opinion some of the CMON painters (including sculpters) are "Artists" some are truly inspirational... big up respect to you.. and yet even those that arent high quality are still artists, experience can never be overlooked.

Even Classic pieces of art - a house made of bricks, or half a cow to recognised artists (as well as people we dont know or havent been exposed to the public) - it is what they provoke in each of us - that is what matters...
 

Wyrmypops

New member
I don't mind Modern Art at all. That's too general a term - I like some of what would fall beneath that banner. Pop Art and Dadaism particularly, I like that, the strong design principles in the latter and the two fingered salute to the pretentiousness of the art world by the former. There's a lot to appreciate in a juicy high contrast black and white photo too.

I don't mind Abstract Art, ain't my bag really but at least that's got something behind it one can see upon viewing and appreciate, whether it's aesthetically pleasing or not.

It's the Conceptual Art that gets me sneering so hard my face could fall off. One such artist once replied to a question about why it's art with "because I did it, and I'm an artist", one could suspect them planning that phrase out for days in advance, like Yoda practising sophistry.

Upon viewing, the concept is not evident - rather, it's part of the process that leads to the artist doing it.
Where most other genres of art with a piece called "horse" would in some way have some visually obvious connection to a horse, a conceptual piece could be any old toot with the only connection to anything horselike at all existing only in the artists head, informing the creation rather than evident in the end result.

What makes it worse, one of the friends I've kept in contact with from art college went the conceptual route. I've gone to many a private viewing and stumbled to find something complimentary to say, as there's no story to the art one can readily pick up on, and there's no guarantee of design principles at work in making them aesthetically pleasing.
Surrounded by random blobs, textures and colours that don't neccesarily suggest anything, what's a bloke to do? Given that I tend to lean towards an appreciation of design myself I pick on the one that grabs me the most and try to find something positive to say about it from that perspective.
"I like that one with the geese," I once ventured. "Geese? I got nothing with geese." I pointed out one I'd picked for the token praise, turned out it was a board with melted plastic soldiers painted bronze, for no reason that was any clearer after they'd told me.

I used to get easily irked at art college. The lecturers, their lessons, and what they picked up on was all so pretentious. That whole "it's art because its done by artists" could have come from them. Quite honestly it seemed more about the talking about it rather than the execution, one could generate more praise with a verbose plaque attached to a shoddy piece of art than a gloriously executed piece with but an obvious name attached.

I've found Installation Art more likely to embrace some design principles, and evoke something arty through an understanding of how colours and shades work on us. But even so, seem quite random.

Gawd, and Performance Art. Mimes and Clowns were bad enough, but least you could tell what they were about, but some mook warbling or flapping about, painted or dressed peculiarly, purporting to symbolise some esoteric hooha, they can so go on "the list". :loser:
 

evil tendencies

Cake or Death?
I guess I consider something compelling that is inspired by the artistic impulse, but lacks the component of technical skill, to be "aesthetic." Art, in my mind, requires artistic impulse married to technical skill.

Cubism, while I care little for it, is art in this rubric of mine, and I think most people would agree. Walking into a room just in time to see the "artist" peeing on a park bench would, again, by my rubric, be considered merely compelling (I was compelled by my senses to leave, actually).
 

Beelzebrush

Active member
Just out of interest, have any of you who see abstract art as a skill less (or lacking in skill ie 'a child could do it' or a 'trained monkey' etc) art form, actually tried to make an abstract painting?

You should really try and have a go and see if it really is as easy as you think.

My guess is, that you are going to struggle to achieve anything that is convincing and aesthetic.

Seriously guys, just get yourselves a sheet of paper or any other media and paint an abstract. Try and consider the form of what you are trying to achieve and the colours too. Starting that painting is quite a tricky process in reality, finishing is tricky too. You have to make exactly the same decisions as, say, a landscape artist, portrait painter etc but without the subject matter in front of you to interpret.

There's no bullshit.... it's just you, a sheet of paper or a canvas or whatever, some paint and your own imagination. Forget about the background 'story' of the painting..... just make a painting. It's really the only way to decide if it's as easy as you think or, I suspect, a far more difficult undertaking.

My own personal stance is that I love art. I love art because it draws an emotional response. I once went to a gallery showing and there was a room full of Rothko paintings, the light was slightly subdued and the effect was astonishing. Having said that, I have always held Abstract Expressionism in great esteem. In fact, I'm somewhat surprised you'd even class this as modern art?? I'd also strongly disagree about it being lacking in skill.

I think that this is the sort of response that the impressionists got when showing their brave new work in the 19th Century.... 'children could do it', 'trained monkeys', 'messy' etc etc. Look at it now, widely regarded as great art and adorning countless posters and prints and a common sight on household wall around the world.

What also puzzles me is why people insist on quantifying art and artists with the market value of their works. For every Damian Hirst there are many, many artists who's marketable value is signicantly minimal in comparison, who make beautiful painting, sculpture etc. There will always be savvy savants who make the money.... but that's just straightforward business and has very little to do with art itself, despite being an integral part.... if you see what I mean.

Anyway, an unfathomable subject matter to tackle without resorting to sweeping generalisations and doubtless, one that nobody will ever agree on.


Seriously though, try to make an abstract painting. It would be really injteresting to see what you come up with. I paint abstracts myself, and sell them from time-to-time, and my experience is definitely not one of it being a simple matter.
 

ScottRadom

Shogun of Saskatchewan
Meh.

Modern art is mostly shit to me. Old art is mostly shit to me too though.

I can appreciate art for two things, and usually a combination of both. There's the skill factor, and the creatvie factor. I totally disagree with BB about abstract and such taking skill, but I do think it takes creativity. It might be creative to have three squiggly lines on a canvass, but I do NOT give that artist any points for skill.
 

Shawn R. L.

New member
@evil tendencies " Art, in my mind, requires artistic impulse married to technical skill."

That's my point. I won't go so far as to say that something someone creates is not art, but I also won't go so far as to give something that shows little to no skill and thus conveys little if anything, high marks.....The Emperors New Cloths.


Roland Dorgeles, an habitué of the Lapin Agile and a bitter foe of the Cubists, wanting to take revenge for the pretentiousness that pervaded their exhibits, tied a paint-brush to a donkey's tail, placed a canvas with pots of paint behind it and, allowing it to swish colors at will, conjured up an abstract painting entitled Le Soleil se couche sur l'Adriatique (Sunset on the Adriatic).
The work was then exhibited at the 1910 competition of the Salon des Indépendants.
The painting was hailed by the majority of critics as a masterpiece. Dorgeles then dropped his bombshell into the local papers and the headlines read: "Donkey Heads Artistic School."

Beelzebrush You should really try and have a go and see if it really is as easy as you think.

I've done some and it's hard to make it work.......it can be done but I have had some pieces that were a bear to get right. The more I got into doing abstract are the more I realized it was the under structure of all artwork. Shapes, colors, composition etc. but they just don't necessarily look like anything recognizable. A well done piece of 'regular' artwork combines these elements but does it with things that are made to be recognizable.
 
Last edited:

dauber22

New member
Very well said, Beelzebrush.

Shawn - Having seen your work - in fact, having a piece of it prominently displayed in front of meat the moment - I have no doubt that you could create a pleasing bit of abstract art and I understand your point. However, there are times when making something "recognizable" can be as much of a crutch as an obstacle. Its kind of tough to explain what I mean exactly, but I think that's what BB was trying to express, too. The best analogy I can come up with is trying to paint something in a photo-realistic style. I think we'd all agree that trying to do so is much easier if you have a reference photo. Well, if all you do is recreate the reference photo it would certainly demonstrate skill,but would it really be art? And if your sole purpose is to create a photo-realistic representation of something you could take a photo of, why not just take a photo? So if the sole goal of art is realistic representation, isn't all art invalid, save for photography? And isn't everything short of absolute lifelike representation a step in the direction of the dreaded "abstraction"? In fact, isn't ALL 2-dimensional representation of a 3D world an abstraction? And if the argument is that you could train a child do do an abstract drawing... Well, you can also train a child to do representational drawings. Ever see a child s drawing of his house and family? You can tell its a house and a family.

BTW, thanks for raising this topic. It's a fun discussion.
 

Einion

New member
Hehe, can't help it but comment on this. This is a good example why Black Square made sense and French Ultramarine doesn't :)
How so?

...and because French Ultramarine has no apparent context...
Splainez vouz? :cute:


Bring back portraits and landscapes!
They never entirely went away, thankfully.


Just out of interest, have any of you who see abstract art as a skill less (or lacking in skill ie 'a child could do it' or a 'trained monkey' etc) art form, actually tried to make an abstract painting?
I contend a child could literally be taught to make Rothko-esque paintings in a short time, if they could be taught to paint a wall to a reasonable standard in only an hour or so :thinking:

My guess is, that you are going to struggle to achieve anything that is convincing and aesthetic.
Isn't "convincing and aesthetic" so subjective that there's no case to answer here; after all, art is in the eye of the beholder no?

In difficulty terms a lot does depend on what is trying to be achieved: it is certainly not going to be simple to paint a believable Kandinsky, even a Pollock takes more effort than it first appears (especially if done large), but a Rothko or Newman? Ridiculously easy. And that's what makes me personally suspect that work like that may not have the artistic integrity that the art cognoscenti believe, or assume, it has.

While I agree with you that painting abstracts is not something that's automatically as easy as people tend to think - non-painters in particular - your perspective is 'authentic' (sorry, unavoidable artsy terminology!) so that might skew your thoughts on the difficulty in overcoming the blank canvas and producing something that you feel is worthwhile... but it's much, much less difficult if approached from a more mundane, even uncaring, perspective! If the person doing it has no artistic aspirations for the work at all and they're just replicating or creating along a given theme (tight guidelines can help) then it can be truly easy.

Another way of looking at it: take two acknowledged masterpieces, one of them an abstract and the other a realist representational painting of some kind. Which one would be easiest for the average Joe or Jane to copy or mimic? Pretty obvious answer here. The realist piece doesn't even have to be that realistic (e.g. James Bama, Gottfried Helnwein or Don Eddy) just the fact that it would require good draughtsmanship is enough to highlight the difference in skills required.

Einion
 

Beelzebrush

Active member
I think you still need to follow the 'rules' of composition with an abstract painting, for it to be successful. Obviously the finished aesthetic is subjective but like with any work, the structure is what makes it good.

You see, I honestly don't understand your point. I think we're blurring the lines here a bit and I'm really not sure that 'difficulty' is really a valid issue - if it was then it would be Salieri we'd all be humming and not Mozart.. If we are talking pure draughtsmanship, then Durer, Da Vinci, Michelangelo etc... had this perfected centuries ago. They took it to a point that hasn't been surpassed since. In which case, you could argue that art might as well have stopped there.

I think abstract art is more like primitive art. Very expressive and primal.

The level of difficulty in reproducing a painting isn't really the point either in my opinion. In fact, I'd argue that in some circumstances, a realist painting would be more comprehensible, even easier to reproduce.

Here's a painting from the Abstract Expressionists by Arshile Gorky

arshile_gorky_liver_is_cocks_comb.jpg


Here's a painting by Willem de Kooning

%20deKooning,%20Pink%20Angels.jpg


Here's a painting by Edward Hopper

night-hawks.jpg


and a Painting by David Hockney

hockney.clark-percy.jpg




These are all well known paintings and all are considered masterpieces. I would be really surprised if any of these were easily reproduced. But, if I had a choice I would rather tackle the Hopper painting and the Hockney painting. There is so much going on in the abstract paintings, that I think it would be extremely difficult to reproduce without getting inside the artist's head. There's a great deal of structure and form involved with all the above. The use of colour, which is something that I know Einion is extremely knowledgeable about, is also, very seriously considered.


Anyway, all this is just my opinion. I just like art I guess.
 

Einion

New member
You see, I honestly don't understand your point. I think we're blurring the lines here a bit and I'm really not sure that 'difficulty' is really a valid issue...
It is in as much as you engaged it when you cast doubt on the easiness point:
Just out of interest, have any of you who see abstract art as a skill less (or lacking in skill ie 'a child could do it' or a 'trained monkey' etc) art form, actually tried to make an abstract painting?
:wink:

It certainly doesn't have to be an issue - some artists' works are not inherently difficult to produce but they are still art by most definitions. But pieces that apparently don't require skill to produce are hard things for many people to get past and the examples I chose specifically - Rothko, Newman and Klein - are a hard case to answer.

Einion
 

Beelzebrush

Active member
Well einion.... you keep saying that these are easy things to produce..... why not take a couple of hours and knock one together..... let's say emulate a Rothko painting. Seriously, try it. I suppose you could say, put your money where your mouth is. No pressure, no confrontation, ne real need if you don't want to ..... but just to satisfy curiosity.

I for one would be interested to see if you make a good and honest representation. |Obviously, you'll need to make an original Rothkoesque painting, rather than copy one.

Will you?

Incidentally, what did you think of the examples that I posted above? I think the quality and weighting of the linework in the abstract works is superb. Also, the use of composition is really similar in all the paintings.... just look at the strong vertical lines a third of the way in on the left of each painting.... coincidence? I doubt it. Maybe all are very learned in composition?
 
Last edited:

mattsterbenz

New member
I guess I'll chime in here, couldn't resist an art thread :)

I love modern art. I love abstract art.

However, I think people are confused with the difference between Abstract and Non-Representational.

All representational art is abstract. Put an object on the table and ask a hundred artists to paint it. Each painting will be different. Each artist has specific influences and experiences that they translate into how they portray something. Heavy brushstrokes, light brushstrokes, muted color, exaggerated color, that's all abstract.

It takes a lot of understanding to portray something in the fewest possible marks, and to use subtle color changes and composition to draw the viewer's eye to a specific area. Just because something is not photo-realistic does not make it worthless and apparently "easy" to create.

Look at any famous artist, past or present. They became famous because they did something that had not been done before, not because they duplicated a photograph. Anyone can do a paint-by-number.

I hate to use my own work as an example, but it's what I have handy right now.

Take a look at this crop from one of my paintings. It's abstract and non-representational. Just some heavy brushstrokes. Anyone can slap some paint on a canvas and have it look similar.
crop.jpg


Now, look at the painting as a whole. It looks much different, and now we can see what it really is.
Triptych2_small.jpg


Are trees really red? No. Does light really shine that way through trees? No. That's what I chose to express to get my point across in my painting.


Bottom line is it's all about understanding the whole. There's more to a painting than simply making something look photo-realistic.



Alright, that's it. I'll climb down from my chair now :)

-Matt
 

Einion

New member
Seriously, try it. I suppose you could say, put your money where your mouth is. No pressure, no confrontation, ne real need if you don't want to ..... but just to satisfy curiosity.
No, none at all :talktohand: I'm not going to spend mucho dinero to satisfy your curiosity, i.e. to prove a point in an argument on the Internet!

For anyone who's unfamiliar with Rothko's work this is the kind of size of canvas we're talking about; that's $100-$200 dollars even before you get to the paint.

...

Anyone else have doubts about which of one and two is doable by your average person? :eyeroll!:

Einion
 

Beelzebrush

Active member
No probs einion.... as I said... no confrontation, no pressure, just a bit of fun really. And I certainly didn't think we were having an argument???

Anyway, I reckon you could scale the painting back though, with a bit of thought. A canvas would definitely help with a bit of texture, and I'd guess you already have paint for a small painting. A small canvas costs pennies these days too.

...

Anyone else have doubts about which of one and two is doable by your average person? :eyeroll!:

Einion


I guess we'll never know :D You definitely talk a good battle man! :p
 
Last edited:

Dedwrekka

New member
I see a lot of dislike of Pollock's paintings being thrown around. However, it's important to recognize that he's an abstract expressionist. He wasn't painting a thing, he wasn't painting an idea, he was capturing emotion and motion. He's one of those artists of the time when they started to realize that they didn't have to paint for other people anymore, and they were free to make expressions in their medium for themselves.

Much as people see a medium or finished product as simplistic, there's still much doubt that it could be reproduced with accuracy, regularity, or with the same emotions one could attach to it.

On that note, take a look at this performace artist . The art is fairly simplistic in detail, as is the medium, but I doubt that many could reproduce the art, the feel, or the effect.

4) Much of what we see as modern art - especially the scheister, bad prank type stuff - is what you get from a mixture of government funding and media attention. Government funding - in almost all fields - tends to go to those who are best at selling themselves which, while it is a talent, has very little to do with art.And media attention tends to go to things that will attract peoples' attention. For instance: outrageous art. Very few people would pay too much attention to an article or piece on the news about a talented painter. People will say: "That's not news!" or nod and say "very nice" and move on. However, show them something outrageous or offensive and people get up in arms. That's precisely what the media is looking for, so they give a lot more coverage to it, which in turn, stimulates more people to produce crap so they can get attention.


I think there's an interesting example of this currently. Personally the art of the "Bodies" exhibit touring the world is quite odd and morbid, even for me.
Yet you can see an easily comparable difference in foot traffic around museums when it is present, as opposed to any other type of art. It's nothing like what would otherwise be considered art, but notoriety and shock value pay the bills at otherwise struggling art museums.


Though I do think that some modern art has the basic value of being the beginning of a conversation, something to open dialog.
Sometimes just on the basis of trying to make a point or statement in the real world, instead of the more generally accepted form of artists just keeping their "statements" confined to the art world.
 
Back To Top
Top