NMM: - A triumph of style over substance. Discuss.

[Panza]

IMHO

I like NMM, I also like metallics, and although I\'ve only tried NMM gold (it came out looking like bone!) I\'m looking forward to giving it a go on the next few figures, but I don\'t think it\'s the way forward, any more that standard metallics are old hat. You do what you can do, as well as you can do it.

I suppose if we look at it scientifically, we should all be painting in NMM. We shade our figures as if lit by a fixed light source. We black-line for shadows, we blend in highlights, so a metallic finish that catches the light as the figure is moved could be said to spoil the illusion of our shading, since it\'s highlighting conforms to the lighting surrounding the figure and not the illusionary shading we\'ve applied.

But hell, I wouldn\'t want to try to paint an army in NMM. My head would explode! Sometimes metallics are the tool for the job, and they can look very nice if shaded correctly. Anyone seen some of the bronze and brass effects coming out of the GW painting studios? Niiiice!

So to sum up...go forth and paint, and if you like it, it\'s a good job, and If nobody else likes it, then why should that change your opinion of it.

But then again, what do I know? lol

 

[mouse]

judging...

Originally posted by hagness
I find it extremely unconscionable that the best artists can be judged by amateurs in a public forum that really serves to denigrate the hobby as a whole. In spite of my initial support for CMON, as far as I can tell it has served no ultimate purpose of good. This thread is a perfect example.

The consensus of the general masses is that it takes an excellent artist to pull off NMM effects. So who are we to judge something that we can\'t do ourselves, much less do better? We can try to simulate Monet\'s (the famous 2D artist) works, but can we really critique it in a way such as \"it doesn\'t resemble nature in a realistic way\"? That\'s total BS, and not useful to anyone.

CMON would be just as beneficial to me if the ratings system were done away with. Maybe that would discourage the amateurs from attempting to make themselves look better by putting down the best artists of our precious hobby.

hagness, you pissed me off. :flame:

seriously, how well can you do things around you?
can you drive better than a cabbie who\'s on the road for 10 hours?
can you make an advertisement?
can you fly a plane?
can you make a movie/tv serial?
can you write a novel?
can you run a country?
can you fight a war?

Most often than not, somehow and somewhere in your thoughts and conversations, you make judgment like that regarding the people who undertake such tasks as mentioned...denigrating to these people?

\"That movie\'s terrible!\", said hagness, spitting on the ground in disgust.

\"Someone ought to cage up the director!\", exclaimed hagness throwing his arms in the air.

\"Sorry, but can you direct a movie then?\" asked the mouse.

\"...who are you?\" hagness casted a downward glance at that little rodent.

Tapping his foot impatiently, the little mouse placed his hands on his hips and waited for his reply.

\"oh...directing a movie, right?\" hagness replied. \"Of course not! I am not a director!\"

\"Why judge then?\" the mouse answered.

Shaking his head in disbelief, he turned and walked off into the sunset.

 

[Panza]

Um...you don\'t think you\'re taking this mouse thing too far, perhaps?

...said Panza the tank, rolling menacingly down the road, vibrating the nearby houses in a rhythmic fashion.

Oh bugger, now I\'m doing it!:duh:

 

[hagness]

worthy of a reply

Honestly, I don\'t think I should waste my time with a reply, but to show that I do respect your intent, here it is.

Everybody\'s entitled to an opinion, but when the opinion is posted in a public forum, it becomes a criticism. And when more than one person participates in the critique, judgement has been passed. In law, a jury is composed of impartial persons whose goal it is to remain impartial.

So when judging others\' work, can anyone here say they are truly impartial? Have you ever given your own work a higher score than its average? Have you ever given a figure a 10? If so, then you\'re probably biased. Then consider your bias about NMM, and realize that (for this particular thread) you\'re trying to recruit a jury with similar bias.

If you want to really learn, try MCMP. You can learn from CMON without the ratings system, although CMON is becoming more worthless every day because of the huge flood of minis posted that one learns relatively little from. (Not necessarily lower rated!)

I paint, but don\'t consider myself an artist. I\'m a collector, and I keep my opinions between myself and other artists. I discuss painting directly with artists I wish to learn from or commission from. I try not to waste time with forums. Gotta go to the OR. Have fun painting, all.

 

[Panza]

What\'s MCMP, and what\'s an OR! Colour me confused

Yay, 30 posts!lol

 

[SHG]

MCMP is a Yahoo group - Masterclass Mini Painters.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MasterclassMiniaturePainters

As far as NMM goes, I think it\'s sortof flavour of the month (being new-ish still and developing as a technique), although it\'s definitely here to stay. Not necessarily a triumph of substance over style as I feel it definitely has it\'s place in the \'toolbox\' of a mini-painter. But I think it can be overused a great deal when not necessarily appropriate in the context of certain miniatures (I\'m thinking more of sky earth NMM here, when it\'s done on large flat areas. IMO it tends to show up best on small details) especially a lot of GW minis.... The surge in popularity of the use of the technique on mini\'s in the last 12-18 months sortof reminds me of that Cranberries album title - \'Everyone else is doing it so why can\'t we\'...Sometimes I think it\'s done just for the sake of \'being done\' rather than being done to enhance the overall vision of a particular mini (eg. SENMM on a mini painted to be weathered and battle scarred just dosn\'t quite sit right with me).
But as people have mentioned, when used in the right context on the right mini\'s it can look truly awesome.
(as for me I\'m currently torn between painting using NMM and metallics... I think I\'ll end up with a happy medium of the two, trying to merge both techniques....Painting with metallics but painting it as if it\'s NMM, so more emphasis on light direction, shading, etc.)

-Sean

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by hagness
Honestly, I don\'t think I should waste my time with a reply, but to show that I do respect your intent, here it is.

Everybody\'s entitled to an opinion, but when the opinion is posted in a public forum, it becomes a criticism. And when more than one person participates in the critique, judgement has been passed. In law, a jury is composed of impartial persons whose goal it is to remain impartial.

So when judging others\' work, can anyone here say they are truly impartial? Have you ever given your own work a higher score than its average? Have you ever given a figure a 10? If so, then you\'re probably biased. Then consider your bias about NMM, and realize that (for this particular thread) you\'re trying to recruit a jury with similar bias.

If you want to really learn, try MCMP. You can learn from CMON without the ratings system, although CMON is becoming more worthless every day because of the huge flood of minis posted that one learns relatively little from. (Not necessarily lower rated!)



I paint, but don\'t consider myself an artist. I\'m a collector, and I keep my opinions between myself and other artists. I discuss painting directly with artists I wish to learn from or commission from. I try not to waste time with forums. Gotta go to the OR. Have fun painting, all.

I don\'t see how you can equate being impartial or judging something to true learning. OF COURSE I am \'partial\' to things. I can criticize things, yet I can still learn a lot from that. Every person who posted a picture on this site is ASKING to be judged. It is a very good learning tool. It is not as if we are randomly seeing these minis and arbitrarily giving opinions. The entire site is designed to judge minis, and if the \"true artists\" have a problem, then why would they post a pic?

I think you have raised interesting points, and I am not afraid of differing opinions, but you also make several mentions to \'wasting your time\', as if the forums are \'beneath you\', haven\'t you just passed judgement yourself?

I still find CMON a great online mini-course (pun intended), I am sorry you don\'t see it that way.


BTW PANZA, congrats on the thirty posts!!!

 

[-Percival-]

I\'m a new comer to CoolMiniOrNot...but not a newbie painter (been painting for over 25 years now).

I like the NMM style. But I do look at it, as a style...and it will suit some people and not others...

What I have noticed is that you can get the same look from metals...but most people get lazy here. I very seldom see anyone do any shading and highlighting when they work with Metals. The closest I see is a Black or Brown wash...and thats it...Why would people go to such trouble to paint there Mini...and then slouch on the Metal? Thats my only gripe with Metal.

 

[Basement Dweller]

My other major hobby is painting military miniatures (also called Connoisseur Miniatures is some circles - 54mm and up) and I\'ve encountered a lot of NMM there. The appropriateness of NMM is entirely based on your goal, IMHO. You either want 3D figures that look like art (mostly military art for the 54mm and up) or you want ot paint a figure that looks as real as possible. What makes a figure look real in a 2D setting is different for a 3D. Most painters strive for s 2D art look, and that\'s fine.

I prefer to make my miniatures, regardless of how cartoony the figure is, to look as real as possible. Therefore I only use NMM when I paint flats. It also results in most of my larger figures having more subdued shadows and highlights. Yes, I win fewer medals because of it, but I\'m happier with what I see in my miniature cabinet.

It also seems to me that most of the newer techniques are geared toward looking good in photos, but not necessarily real life. I\'ve seen the same figure both in print and in the \"flesh\" and photos smooth out a lot of layered paint jobs (which is why I stick to oils for the larger scale figures - the blending is always smooth).

Last point, before I return to Lurk Mode. In regards to hagness\' comment \"I find it extremely unconscionable that the best artists can be judged by amateurs in a public forum\". Best is subjective and as such it is always some group of people that form what is best. Better that be discussed freely in an open forum rather than by \"insiders\".

Regards,
Basement Dweller

<lurk mode on>

 

[freakinacage]

things are getting rather heated aren\'t they. i have to agree with supervike and others. you post your stuff here to be criticised. of course no one is biased. it is almost impossible not to be. all criticism is constructive and tends to be taken with good humour. if the supremes such as arjay etc didn\'t want their stuff to be criticised, then why would they post it? - eh? eh? answer THAT one hagness!!!

hagness - if you have such a big problem with the site, why did you bother to join????

 

[Beelzebrush]

I have to agree with the majority here too. I think you can legitimately point out flaws in anyone\'s work regardless of whether you have the ability to paint at that person\'s level, or not. I think artists can easily get a sort of tunnelled vision after spending many hours looking in very close detail, to something that is barely taller than an inch. In this scenario, it\'s not unusual to miss something that would immediately \'jump out\' to a fresh pair of eyes. Personally, I\'d appreciate something like this to be mentioned so I could either amend it or learn from it.

At the end of the day, it\'s a public forum and by it\'s nature you are opening yourself up to criticism... but of course that\'s the whole point surely.

Just my tuppence

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

OK, Darkblade man breath!…breath! You’re going red . . . OH, Oh…parry, riposte, lunge!

2. Maintained for or used by the people or community: a public park.
4. Participated in or attended by the people or community: “Opinions are formed in a process of open discussion and public debate” (Hannah Arendt).
5. Connected with or acting on behalf of the people, community, or government: public office.
6. Open to the knowledge or judgment of all: a public scandal.
noun
1. The community or the people as a whole.
2. A group of people sharing a common interest: the reading public.
3. Admirers or followers, especially of a famous person.

Source MS Bookshelf 2000, Definitions

Originally posted by hagness
And when more than one person participates in the critique, judgement has been passed. In law, a jury is composed of impartial persons whose goal it is to remain impartial.

Having sat on a few juries, they are a bunch of well meaning “amateurs” doing their level best to be impartial, while still bringing all their unique prejudices and points of view to the table. As for it being a “judgment” in this case, hardly . . . opinion, definitely. The Golden Daemons are “judgment”.

Originally posted by hagness
So when judging others\' work, can anyone here say they are truly impartial? Have you ever given your own work a higher score than its average? Have you ever given a figure a 10? If so, then you\'re probably biased. Then consider your bias about NMM, and realize that (for this particular thread) you\'re trying to recruit a jury with similar bias.

“Impartial”, maybe not entirely, but at least the “critiques” overwhelming tend to be constructive. Constructive criticism, now there is a thought. It’s called d-i-s-c-u-s-s-i-o-n not “recruitment”, The stated goal “What do you all think?”. Discourse and debate are also appropriate words for what goes on here.

Originally posted by hagness
If you want to really learn, try MCMP. You can learn from CMON without the ratings system, although CMON is becoming more worthless every day because of the huge flood of minis posted that one learns relatively little from. (Not necessarily lower rated!)

I paint, but don\'t consider myself an artist. I\'m a collector, and I keep my opinions between myself and other artists. I discuss painting directly with artists I wish to learn from or commission from. I try not to waste time with forums. Gotta go to the OR.

I have to assume by the tone that “artist” can only mean “good artist” or “exceptional artist”, “guru” or “genius”. Who defines “artist”, someone, maybe if you have time, should go through the whole site and designate the “artists” for the rest of us “amateurs”. lol

These forums and this discussion, which for the most part, I really enjoy reading and occasional “chiming in on” are filled with good people, discussing their favorite topics and ideas about our hobby. I have found that there is openness, thinking and being thoughtful and a lot of good humour here that should not be dismissed as not being useful to the learning process. It is “public”, so you have a right to your opinion and consequently I have a right to critique that opinion.

Originally posted by hagness
Have fun painting, all.

Don’t worry we will. lol

Darkblade

 

[AAvH-Darkblade]

And reverend thought he was preachy

 

[paleotaur]

Congrats Darkblade, I think that\'s the longest post I\'ve ever seen \'round here. You\'re right, of course, the sad thing is I doubt Hagness will ever read all this. otoh, at least you got it off your chest!

 

[supervike]

Darkblade, you are a man of few words.

a FEW THOUSAND!!

lollollollollol

no offense just jokin\'!!

 

[hagness]

of course

I read this, and notice that I don\'t contradict anything that anybody has brought up. You can\'t debate facts, and it\'s useless to debate opinions, and this forum isn\'t for debating anyway, so I don\'t know why people keep attempting it.

Summary: comments GOOD, pics GOOD, forums GOOD. How do ratings contribute in any positive way? So why have them? (If you have a thoughtful answer, post it in a new thread.) That was the gist of my original diatribe, although it was slightly obscured because I tried to make it fit into topic: NMM.

Specifically on NMM: why debate it? How does it help anybody here to know others\' opinions on it? I could give you my opinion on using acrylics, too, would that help you? Probably not, but describing how I painted a particular figure might be of interest.

If you really want to help the people here in a meaningful way, then do so. If you want to do *this*, this site will become ever more quickly useless to the rest of us. Show us your NMM success stories, or your metallics success stories, or even your NMM failures, just give us *content.*

Please, let\'s drop this now-useless thread (useless to begin with IMO, but even more so since my post, to my chagrin), and come up with something better, okay? I\'m putting together a story of how I am collecting an army, what are you doing?

 

[dauber22]

I don\'t know why, but somehow the phrase \"pompous ass\" keeps coming to mind.

 

[supervike]

FINN17, where are YOU??

Finn17, look what you have started!!!

And you thought this was going to be an inconspicous little poll.

That will teach you for trying to post at 2 am!!! (see I read all the posts!):bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

 

[Corvus]

This really reminds me of the thread I start a few month ago in the Confrontation forum about a mini I thought was very expensive.

It also got out of hand a bit

:innocent:

 

[finn17]

Ooooo...errrrrr!

Originally posted by supervike
Finn17, look what you have started!!!

And you thought this was going to be an inconspicous little poll.

That will teach you for trying to post at 2 am!!! (see I read all the posts!):bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

Well, would you credit it? I have to come clean and say I started this whole little thread off with the intention of generating a bit of heated debate and admitted as much in an early post:

\"OK! Sorry folks. I apologise. I know the poll questions are a bit stinky, but it was 2.00 or so in the morning when I posted that topic. My blood pressure had been raised by the fact that I could not get my hands on the new CMON book and I thought I would let off steam by starting a controversial topic and getting something else off my chest\".

I think, on the whole we have had a nice controversial debate. I wasn\'t expecting quite such controversial posts however.

I would like to say that I feel hagness has had a raw deal but then I re-read:

\"I find it extremely unconscionable that the best artists can be judged by amateurs in a public forum that really serves to denigrate the hobby as a whole. In spite of my initial support for CMON, as far as I can tell it has served no ultimate purpose of good. This thread is a perfect example\".

and...

\"The consensus of the general masses is that it takes an excellent artist to pull off NMM effects. So who are we to judge something that we can\'t do ourselves..\"

and...

\"If you want to really learn, try MCMP. You can learn from CMON without the ratings system, although CMON is becoming more worthless every day because of the huge flood of minis posted that one learns relatively little from. (Not necessarily lower rated!)\"

\"I paint, but don\'t consider myself an artist. I\'m a collector, and I keep my opinions between myself and other artists. I discuss painting directly with artists I wish to learn from or commission from. I try not to waste time with forums\".

and...

\"You can\'t debate facts, and it\'s useless to debate opinions, and this forum isn\'t for debating anyway, so I don\'t know why people keep attempting it\".


And then I think that people who cover themselves with jam and chuck bricks at a bees nest should be prepared for the consequences.

I am sorry hagness, but I think that you have totally and utterly missed the point. his site is called CMON. As in:

Come on...!! Show us what you\'ve got!

The main reason for having this site is to post your minis so that others can vote and comment. Yes, there will always be complete gits and spoilers but most people on this site, and almost all who contribute to the forums (\"...those wastes of time...\") which (\"...aren\'t for debating...\"!!!) take a great deal of time and trouble to look at other people\'s work and offer constructive criticism.

You would not believe the amount of times regular contributors have answered the questions:

\"How do I strip paint?\"

\"What is NMM?\"

\"How do I layer?\"

\" What colour do I paint my Blood Angels?\" (....? Red!!!! Red!!! you Bastard!!!)
Sorry, reminded me of a recent post....shudder.

So, it\'s been an interesting debate. The actual comments on the pros and cons of NMM have been interesting, and it is always useful to know how your views fit in with those of others. Or not.

Hagness, I am sure you feel more at home on the \'masterclass\' site and that\'s fine. It is probably unfair however, to come over here, dump in this particular toilet and then take offence when people moan about the stink. I do think you have had short shrift, but I also think you asked for it, and then asked for a bit more.

Would anyone like to suggest a topic for the next \'Big Debate\'...?...?:bouncy: