Rant on dutch Identification law...

[Margo]

Originally posted by green stuffAll great nations have complicated burocracies. That doesn\'t lessen the people who live in them, nor the people who built them, nor their history IMHO .

That\'s what I call rational and wise And, well, it\'s no wonder I know the laws of this place better than some native citizens. I think it\' always this way: those who have to deal with bureaucrats more, naturally, know the laws better.

 

[Alexi_Z]

Originally posted by Margo
And, well, it\'s no wonder I know the laws of this place better than some native citizens -- I have to know them to be able to deal with the bureocrats

Oh, really? But you dont know about 90 days for registration... Now you know... :flip:

 

[supervike]

As the first American to chime in, I\'d like to say we are starting down that path as well.

It is becoming common practice for the police to set up \'safety checks\' on random roads throughout the year. You are stopped, have your vehicle \'inspected\', make sure you are wearing a seat belt, asked to see your drivers license, etc. etc.

Some of the people I have talked to have the attitude \'well, if you aren\'t doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear\'.....which scares the beejesus out of me.

Also traffic citations have become so much more a revenue source and so much less a punitive measure it concerns me.

I can imagine that it won\'t be long until we too are required to have identity papers.

 

[Corvus]

Originally posted by supervike
It is becoming common practice for the police to set up \'safety checks\' on random roads throughout the year. You are stopped, have your vehicle \'inspected\', make sure you are wearing a seat belt, asked to see your drivers license, etc. etc.

Actually this is a very common practice over here. Every now and then police block all major roads from and to the cities, and trap a lot of burglars and people without proper automobile insurance, or just catch people they were looking for.

 

[finn17]

Paranoia

I don\'t think anyone is going to be looking for any of us....Not unless there is a sudden world lead/pewter shortage....

Just call me \'Leadfinger\'
*James Bond music plays in the background*

I suppose you could always put a load of minis in a sock and go out on a mugging spree:bouncy:

 

[green stuff]

Message original : Corvus
Actually this is a very common practice over here. Every now and then police block all major roads from and to the cities, and trap a lot of burglars and people without proper automobile insurance, or just catch people they were looking for.

They mostly do that kind of stuff here to prevent drunk driving. And it works. People are getting more and more concerned by the problem and get organised to have at least one non drinker per car to take them home after a party (remember, this is wine country I\'m talking about ).

 

[Margo]

I\'m not going to discuss the aspects of Russian law with people who can\'t even comprehend what I\'m saying due to poor knowledge of English and start obsessively contradicting a point which I never actually stated. Period.

 

[finn17]

Girls, girls, girls....

Take it outside please....

You are free to dislike each other as much as you like but we all like you both lots so lets have some decorum around here eh?

 

[Sand Rat]

Originally posted by supervike
I can imagine that it won\'t be long until we too are required to have identity papers.

Dont know about Iowa there Vike, but in Tejas you gots to have your Drivers liscence (a form of ID papers) with you at all times when you are outside your humble abode or face a fine - course where I\'m at now not having your ID on you can go from mildly to atrociously unplesant in a few moments.

 

[green stuff]

Message original : finn17
I don\'t think anyone is going to be looking for any of us....Not unless there is a sudden world lead/pewter shortage....

Heaven forbid .

 

[finn17]

Whilst commenting on \'the powers that be\'....

January the 1st saw the implementation of the \'Freedom of Information Act\' in the UK. This supposedly makes all government records accessible to public scrutiny.

Well, on the 1st January a number of organisations, newspapers etc. applied to have access to the Attorney General\'s ruling on the legality of the war in Iraq. Guess what happened.....This was an important document, as you might imagine, but hardly damaging to national security....

That\'s right! Have a banana:bouncy:

It seems some documents are not covered by the FOIA....the embarassing, damaging ones of course

A Gov spokesperson said that requests will be considered on \"....an individual basis...\" In other words you can look at the National Pork Pie Production figures, but anything dodgy or damaging and you\'ve had it pal

Personally, I don\'t mind the Government having secrets. There is undoubtedly an aweful lot that I really do not even want to know.

What annoys the **** out of me however, is the two-facedness of it all.

 

[ramonlaan]

Originally posted by finn17
January the 1st saw the implementation of the \'Freedom of Information Act\' in the UK. This supposedly makes all government records accessible to public scrutiny.

Well, on the 1st January a number of organisations, newspapers etc. applied to have access to the Attorney General\'s ruling on the legality of the war in Iraq. Guess what happened.....This was an important document, as you might imagine, but hardly damaging to national security....

That\'s right! Have a banana:bouncy:

It seems some documents are not covered by the FOIA....the embarassing, damaging ones of course

A Gov spokesperson said that requests will be considered on \"....an individual basis...\" In other words you can look at the National Pork Pie Production figures, but anything dodgy or damaging and you\'ve had it pal

Personally, I don\'t mind the Government having secrets. There is undoubtedly an aweful lot that I really do not even want to know.

What annoys the **** out of me however, is the two-facedness of it all.

Now WHY am I not suprised.....

I also don\'t want to know all these secrects. I am pretty sure that upon knowing all the real secrets of the past 100 years I shall drop dead from suprise or even more likely, embarrasement... There\'s only so much of eye to be opened

Ramon

 

[Herb the bitter]

Originally posted by steelcult

Dont know about Iowa there Vike, but in Tejas you gots to have your Drivers liscence (a form of ID papers) with you at all times when you are outside your humble abode or face a fine - course where I\'m at now not having your ID on you can go from mildly to atrociously unplesant in a few moments.

I have heard of the road blocks here in Wisconsin too, but I think they are just to catch drunk drivers. Given that Russ Feingold was the only senator to vote against the \"Patriot Act\", he\'d probably crap his pants if we were required to carry ID\'s.

According to the 1979 Supreme Court ruling in \"Brown v. Texas\" police can\'t ask for identification without probable cause(as this is a violation of the fourth amendment). So they can\'t stop you just to ask for ID.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by finn17
Take it outside please....

You are free to dislike each other as much as you like but we all like you both lots so lets have some decorum around here eh?

Awww...cat fight lollollol

 

[Alexi_Z]

Originally posted by finn17
Take it outside please....

You are free to dislike each other as much as you like but we all like you both lots so lets have some decorum around here eh?

She cant.... lol

 

[supervike]

probable cause....

Originally posted by Herb the bitter
According to the 1979 Supreme Court ruling in \"Brown v. Texas\" police can\'t ask for identification without probable cause(as this is a violation of the fourth amendment). So they can\'t stop you just to ask for ID.

That is what gets me so upset about the \'road blocks\'. What probable cause do they have to stop me?? I am all for stopping drunk drivers and all for catching the bad guys, but there is a limit.

The \'slippery slope\' is an overused cliche\' but it may work in this case. If the \'road block\' is so effective catching violaters, hell lets just do random house searches looking for violaters....If you don\'t do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear!



on a side note, I have now filled two socks with pointy lead miniatures, anybody want to go \'wilding\' with me???lol

 

[dauber22]

Originally posted by green stuff

Not to go into a big debate on whether it\'s a good or a bad law, but as long as your conscious is clear and you have your papers, who cares to get ones ID checked every now and then?

No offense, Green Stuff, and nothing personal intended, but I always hated that particular arguement. It sounds all logical and reasonable and all that until you\'ve been on the other side. I have been. From approximately the time I turned 14 until I left for college at age 18 or so, I was stopped on a fairly regular basis - on average, once a week - for the vile offense of walking on the streets of my fair town with long hair. Each time I would have to empty my pockets and endure a pat down. Occasionally I was laid out on the hood of the car for a more thorough frisking. Each time I was told I should be carrying some form of ID - I don\'t know exactly WHAT form of ID I was supposed to have at 14. I was NEVER breaking any law when I was stopped. I made absolutely sure of that. They had no probably cause other than that I was a \"hippie\" Let me tell you, after a while I gets a little tedious, not to mention intimidating, whether you are guilty of anything or not.

Sorry to rant on, but it happens to be a \"hot button\" with me.

 

[Herb the bitter]

Originally posted by supervike

That is what gets me so upset about the \'road blocks\'. What probable cause do they have to stop me?? I am all for stopping drunk drivers and all for catching the bad guys, but there is a limit.

The \'slippery slope\' is an overused cliche\' but it may work in this case. If the \'road block\' is so effective catching violaters, hell lets just do random house searches looking for violaters....If you don\'t do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear!



on a side note, I have now filled two socks with pointy lead miniatures, anybody want to go \'wilding\' with me???lol

Making me consult google again eh? Here\'s what I found(not that I necessarily agree with them). Their rationale I believe is that drunk drivers are a greater violation of people\'s rights than police searches(as over 13,000 people die per year in alcohol related crashes). People getting drunk, high etc, in their own homes are only hazardous to themselves.


\"In a 6-to-3 decision, the Court held that the roadblocks did not violate the Fourth Amendment. The Court noted that \"no one can seriously dispute the magnitude of the drunken driving problem or the States\' interest in eradicating it.\" The Court then found that \"the weight bearing on the other scale--the measure of the intrusion on motorists stopped briefly at sobriety checkpoints--is slight.\" The Court also found that empirical evidence supported the effectiveness of the program.\"

 

[Margo]

Originally posted by dauber22Sorry to rant on, but it happens to be a \"hot button\" with me.

Hard not to agree with you on this one; it can be quite humiliating sometimes. For those 2,5 years I live in Moscow, I was stopped only once for no particular reason, the day after I arrived to settle for good. And it happened when I was on my way to the bureaucrats with all my papers ready to get this \"registration\" thing stamped. They saw all the papers, they saw that I arrived only yesterday (and officially, you\'re allowed 3 working days after your arrival to get that registration thing), and still they kept me in the police room (they have those in Moscow underground) for about half an hour, trying to get a bribe out of me. It was humiliating and generally disgusting, but I\'m a woman of principles and I know the law, so I proved myself right. But still... I can see very well what you mean.

 

[green stuff]

Message original : dauber22

Originally posted by green stuff

Not to go into a big debate on whether it\'s a good or a bad law, but as long as your conscious is clear and you have your papers, who cares to get ones ID checked every now and then?

No offense, Green Stuff, and nothing personal intended, but I always hated that particular arguement. It sounds all logical and reasonable and all that until you\'ve been on the other side. I have been. From approximately the time I turned 14 until I left for college at age 18 or so, I was stopped on a fairly regular basis - on average, once a week - for the vile offense of walking on the streets of my fair town with long hair. Each time I would have to empty my pockets and endure a pat down. Occasionally I was laid out on the hood of the car for a more thorough frisking. Each time I was told I should be carrying some form of ID - I don\'t know exactly WHAT form of ID I was supposed to have at 14. I was NEVER breaking any law when I was stopped. I made absolutely sure of that. They had no probably cause other than that I was a \"hippie\" Let me tell you, after a while I gets a little tedious, not to mention intimidating, whether you are guilty of anything or not.

Sorry to rant on, but it happens to be a \"hot button\" with me.

No offense taken dauber22 . I can understand that those situations are over the top. I\'ve probably only had my ID checked twice and no frisk or the rest of the unpleasant business you described. They only do that here if they have serious reasons to think that the person is a drug dealer (and in that case, they\'ve witnessed a transaction). As I said several threads before, the line is thin and I understand that some can be preoccupied by the reduction of their rights .