Where do we draw the line?

[Ebonbuddha]

This is nice. I miss this Rev.
Ok. We have to have a few pints and watch some rugby. I will my wife to make steak and guiness pie. She makes a nice one.

Originally posted by reverend
And in response, maybe you should stick your head back up your arse

 

[fieldarchy]

Honestly dude, you\'re not going to win here. People are just going to keep doggin\' on ya. Just let it go, walk away, and go with the conviction that you WILL kick some tail in the next GD you enter!

 

[Herb the bitter]

Originally posted by reverend

By the way, did I not see Klute appear in this thread? God, it\'s been ages

I saw that too. After I saw his post I had to check the date as I thought someone had resurrected an old thread.


On topic, which would you rather go home with, an inferior model and a golden demon, or the best looking model?
If you truly had the best looking model, and won the admiration of your peers, then you won whether the judges saw it or not.

Don\'t dodge categories, screw the judges, screw winning. Paint what inspires you as a beautiful mini is much better to look at than a golden demon.

 

[rocketandroll]

@: Field & Herb.... thanks both, you are right, and I appreciate it...

\"Step away from the thread... nothing to see here\"



I\'m walking ok, I\'m walking....



Ben

 

[fieldarchy]

Yup man, just walk away and paint your little heart out. That\'s what I do

 

[Trevor]

To give some perspective: apparently the rules were changed on the day, from Albert in another thread:

and all scratchbuilt models were restricted to open category too from this year on (with no previous indication, so a ZERO for the organisation..)

R&T seems to be in a similar position of the posted rules staing one thing that was changed to something else on the day. Have to say if that happened to me I\'d be REALLY pissed off. That has nothing to do with being a bad loser. The rules should be the rules and they should not be changed on the day without prior notice, its really bad form.

@Yramrag

The same people keep winning in Oz GD because they are good and keep entering. However, if you actually look at this years winners there is quite a bit of highly talented new blood winning and a new slayer sword winner.

As for people winning when they \'shouldn\'t\' you\'re talking about personal taste, what you mean is \'you\' don\'t think they should have won. I\'d actually agree with you, in previous years I\'ve not agreed with all the judges decisions either, but you know what? Our opinions count for exactly zero, because we aren\'t judges. Its all about the judges opinion. As has been pointed out, thats the nature of the competition.

 

[Ebonbuddha]

Yes. Paint your heart out. But do wat i said earlier. Re-enter, and win. That is the best revenge.

 

[Wren]

Originally posted by rocketandroll
I am happy to openly admit that I have got back into mini painting to win a golden demon... it was something I dreamed of as a kid, and now, as an adult, I finally feel I\'ve learnt and worked to develop the skills that will hopefully allow me to achieve that dream. Sure, I love the process of painting as much as the next guy, but I am also competitive and paint my minis to enter competitions and try and win.

I can understand why you feel upset about this, and I don\'t think it makes you a lesser person to feel that way or to express how you feel. I do think it can be a little hard to judge a judging as we never have all the same information as the judges, who can look at every mini they want to in the hand, shift to different lighting, etc. I almost lost out on a contest placement once because one of the judges thought I hadn\'t drybrushed the static grass (what makes this funnier is that I had, but too subtly, as usual). That\'s got to be a pretty close comp when it\'s coming down to looking at static grass, and it had nowhere near the number of entries a GD does.

Part of what I think the problem may be is that painting oriented people want to see GD as purely a painting contest, when the reality is that it probably serves at least three masters - fans of the games/gameworld, painters and business concerns. So far as I can tell, the individual branches who organize the GDs have a fair amount of leeway for how they organize them, and the individual judges at the event have a fair amount of leeway for the criteria they use when judging. I have never heard that there is a set of guidelines or rules for judges to use when assessing entries. Maybe there is, but it\'s not especially well-known if so.

There are contests that do have rules for judges as well as entrants, and which serve only the master of judging by painting technique. You might try entering one of those as well as continuing to enter GD and compare the experience. PaintMinion uses a two panel system of judging at Gen Con Indy that she\'s outlined in a few places, and some time ago I saw someone post the quite detailed guidelines used by the juries of one of the historical contests. I know someone was discussing a juried style event in Europe recently, too (France, I think?), and I\'m sure there are others. Sorry I can\'t remember any details, but as I wouldn\'t easily be able to attend any of the events but Gen Con, I didn\'t make a point of remembering a whole lot. :-> Placing in one of these might not increase the price you can charge for commissions, net you coverage in an international magazine (though some of them do have mag coverage, I think), or the kind of \'ooo\' response you\'ll get telling someone in the hobby you\'ve won a demon, but having seen the level of the competition at these types of contests, should still be very satisfying.

 

[SaxonAngel]

The real tragedy here is how much time was lost whinging about the entry that didn\'t make it, when time could have been better spent improving one\'s skills by working on another entry.

 

[Infidel Castro]

And I\'m still waiting to see the pieces all side by side in image format so that I can make a judgement based on facts.

 

[Queen of Credits]

what line ?

Dear Gentle-Poster:

I am sorry but I\'m confused about the \"drawing of the line\" thingy.

...It\'s like when another attorney threatens me that he (or his client) are \"drawing the line\" and I (or my client) better comply \"or else\". ... I always politely ask, \"Or else what, Counsel?\"

...\'cause, you know, it\'s like I\'m really curious what the consequence is for crossing that line they\'ve drawn....

..I\'d say 9 times out of 10, their consequence for me crossing the line they\'ve drawn is nothing more than \'or else I\'m gonna stay mad that I\'m not getting my own way.\' They can\'t force me (or my client) to do whatever alternative they want according to how life must operate in order to \"be fair\" under their worldview.

Personally, I think--under your hypoththetical--the \"or else\" here (or the drawing of the line, if you will) is that if one does not like the caliber of the competition or the judges, one can draw the line by not competing venue. Just boycott the d*** thing and compete in some other venue. It\'s not like the institution is going to say, \"Oh, oh. He/she\'s drawn the line in the sand. We better stop crossing it.\"

Frankly, the happiest painters and sculptors I know are those who paint and sculpt minis for THEMSELVES.

Paint YOUR passion, rather than trying to figure out what formula or color concoction is going to please some competition judge or the masses.

p.s. the best art in my collection that pleases ME most is also from folks who painted and sculpted expressions of emotions, longings, fears, and aspirations, and visions from within themselves. It\'s \"genuine\" because it comes from the artist\'s own soul and expressions of genuiness and pride of authorship appeal to people (including judges) more than anything else.

....just my 2 pence from over here in the queendom of happy credits.

 

[squidders]

Dear Queen of credits... you asterisked out the word \"damn\"? lol

ps. Love your mini collection!

 

[Cleezy]

Thats what it all boils down to painting as its your enjoyment, choosing the models you like and painting to the best of your ability and having fun. Yea your gona be pissed off if you have been wronged but you get your head down and paint more and enter more and try an try again. If you are so certain the model should have won re-enter it to confirm your suspicions it was the judges bias on the day. in fairness the GD judges you cant aim to please as there is no judging guidelines, and that to some extent leaves it to just express yourself through the model.

I would never paint to think yea this will get me a top three at GD, more in fact that im painting it because i like the model and i wana do this technique or try this or because i have a certain view i want it to look like when its finished.

Maybe if you hadn\'t have argued the category it was in so much you might have come away with a deamon, fate seems to work in odd ways

 

[Avelorn]

Originally posted by reverend
And in response, maybe you should stick your head back up your arse

Why? I like his arse better then mine, just checking the view though! But mate, just a tip, if you\'ve got a problem of a head up your ass, fiber is not the way to go... your posting-diarrhea just keeps getting worse! :moon:

Seriously! I think your missing the point here. There are often issues with the judging on these kinds of events and sometimes things just don\'t add up.. and believe me when I say it\'s not always about subjectivity. It doesn\'t mean you are a sour looser if the game you play isn\'t fair from the start or if the judges are tit and his brother twat. I think you are in such occations right to be angry just as with all other competitions. I bet if there was a judging-scandal in rugby you would hand out the torches and pitchforks, or am I wrong? But as I mentioned.. what can you do about it really? Focus your attention and energy to kick all the competitors arses next time!

And some people are sour loosers... not much to get irritated about. I generally just laugh, which doesn\'t help to improve things I\'ve learnt..

Originally posted by Herb the bitter
On topic, which would you rather go home with, an inferior model and a golden demon, or the best looking model?
If you truly had the best looking model, and won the admiration of your peers, then you won whether the judges saw it or not.

Don\'t dodge categories, screw the judges, screw winning. Paint what inspires you as a beautiful mini is much better to look at than a golden demon.

I agree completely

 

[vincenti]

EMOTIONAL ,PASSIONATE & SENSITIVE !!!!

As a rarity( or weirdo ), I would put myself down as an Englishmen( +Welsh+German blood) full of the above emotions.
As a competitor in model comps both military & Sci/fi for well over a decade I would offer some words of wisdom if you suffer with any of the above feelings .
1) Create what you are PASSIONATE about (Q,O,Cs is right ).Did I tell youy I LOVE SPACE WOLVES !!!!
2) Take random comments about your models lightly, wether good or bad
3)As Rudyard Kipling said treat Victory & Defeat, those 2\" imposters\" the same.

And last but not least, enjoy other peoples company at shows and other peoples models.Especially \"Johnny Foreigner\" !

YOU HAVE THE POWER !!!!! AMEN !

Keep up the good work, YOU are very talented !

GOD bless .............. VINCENTIlol

 

[supervike]

My take is that while it may \'hypothetically\' be unfair and hard to swallow, complaining about it publicly will never really serve you any good. What will you expect to change? It\'s a lose-lose situation, and will not help. (although it might be good to vent about it!!)

I think the best situation would be otthers taken it up on your behalf and complained about the system, the bias, etc. etc. Only that way could effect some real change.

If GW is really that biased, vindictive and unfair about the judging, it would seem to me that regular \'mini folks\' would start to see that, and begin to call them on it. Their GD contests would suffer for it. But, since this is all just hypothetical, they must not be.

 

[generulpoleaxe]

vote with your feet mate, go to another contest.
i personaly don\'t like the first past the post system, especialy when advertising has a final say in the winning model.

if your after a rep for miniature sales then GD is a must.
if not, try the historical competitions as fantasy is being welcomed in those in a big way.

 

[laurence]

vincenti quote: 1) Create what you are PASSIONATE about (Q,O,Cs is right ).Did I tell youy I LOVE SPACE WOLVES !!!!
2) Take random comments about your models lightly, wether good or bad
3)As Rudyard Kipling said treat Victory & Defeat, those 2\" imposters\" the same.

And last but not least, enjoy other peoples company at shows and other peoples models.Especially \"Johnny Foreigner\" !

YOU HAVE THE POWER !!!!! AMEN !

Keep up the good work, YOU are very talented !

GOD bless .............. VINCENTI

These are indeed words of wisdom from one of the best painters in the world. If this man says you have talent then it\'s gospel! You have TALENT! Keep painting man and you will achieve your goals.

I must say that I\'m a little jealous. I wish one of the finest miniature painters in the world would give me a little encouragement!

Also, regardless of the mixed response to this thread. I still believe that it\'s been a good thing and has brought some old names out of the woodwork and prompted \'em to write some responses. And this whole thing about this being a waste of time and that you should be channeling this energy into painting is only an opinion. Sometimes the best thing to do is NOT paint but get some perspective and inspiration. I mean, how many painting machines do you see that just churn out tabletop. Get Zen with it man! And bring your life to (not just the paint) your minis. And spend the extra time needed to win the comps. As Vincent Hudson said (not a direct quote) in his latest and extremely insightful mini painting article, it\'s not about painting skill with what I\'m doing, it\'s just spending that extra time to get the results. As they say in Chinese (I\'ll use pinyin) Man(4)man(4)lai(2).

 

[KatieG]

OK, I am putting my two cents into the ring rather late, but as someone who has both entered contests and judged them, maybe this will be helpful. Or maybe not lol

First, I think it\'s ridiculous they changed the rules last minute. I know the one contest I have been involved in helping to judge, we get the rules up as early as we can so that people have plenty of time to plan their entries. This business of changing categories is just plan idiotic. Though if it were me entering, I\'d probably just have to shrug my shoulders and roll with it though instead of arguing with the judges. Every contest I have ever heard of includes the stipulation that \"all decisions of the judges are final\" after all. I truly think that was your first mistake. Of course, I FAIL at standing up for myself most of the time, so there you go.

Yeah you probably pissed off the judges by arguing, and that may have had something to do with you not placing in that category. May. Without seeing all of the miniatures in my hot little hand, though, I can\'t really comment. For one thing, several times in my experience as a judge, the one that looks the best when you\'re looking at it in the case isn\'t necessarily the best painted figure in the case. If you can\'t hold it in your hot little hand, turn it this way and that, etc. it can be really hard to judge.

Then there\'s the whole subjectivity thing. And the whole \"we run these competitions to sell models\" thing also. You have to remember that GW isn\'t in this to pick the best painted minis (necessarily) but to sell models. There\'s going to be a bias there, probably towards new releases. Or you may have painted the model a color two of the three judges hate. Or the winning models are from armies the judges favor. This stuff you can\'t control for. Even if your model is better painted than the winning models, those things might have put the others over the top. Who really knows?

So the long and short of it is, there\'s only one thing you can control, the model you enter. Everything else is in the judges control. If they had a bad day, one model might win over another. Nothing you can do about it except try again.

<pet peeve> Damn it people, it\'s LOSING not LOOSING</pet peeve>

 

[Yramrag]

@ Trevor

Why i am angry with the Australian GD mainly stems from several years ago with Paul Cairncross\'s 40K Warlord titan which won 2nd in open. Sure it was big and well modelled, but when it came to painting, it was crap. It had minimal detail painted onto it. But because he won the Sword the year before, i think people saw more into it than there was.
The other person i don\'t like is Leigh Carpenter\'s work. He won the sword a second time with a Swooping Hawk exarch which was a copy of Jen Haley\'s Chick Challenge 6 (or some number close to that) entry. I have been a long time friend of Andrew Long who is the Chief Judge of OZ GD and i asked him why it won. I was told because it was the best painted. I said it was no where close to being an original miniature or idea, but i was told it doesn\'t matter. WTF? I understand that if 500 people decide to enter a Chaos Lord, then there will be some similarities across the board but to copy someone else\'s miniature and present it as your own, that is just wrong. Leigh also entered a Boromir which was painted exactly like the GW version (which i guess is the movie version as well). Irene Turner entered an Arwen which was painted wonderfully but different from the movie. Leigh takes first for his and Irene gets 2nd. When i asked why it won, \"because it is painted perfectly\". I told him i thought that Irene\'s was painted to a similar standard and showed more creativity. Apparently the eyes were a little bit strange and that is why she didn\'t win.
For me, technical brilliance is great, but if it isn\'t coupled with creativity and originality then it shouldn\'t be enough to ensure a win. Thankfully with Sebastian Archer entering these days, i feel the OZ GD is moving in the right direction.