BloodFather's Axis of Chaos

[Humanitarian]

Thanks Humanitarian. Always appreciative of your knowledge of acrylics and mediums. It would be interesting to see an example of selectively glossed highlights on a miniature. I don't think this is a very standard practice. If anyone reading this has ever seen this and can provide an example, that would be great. Meantime, I REALLY need to get ahold of some styrene so I can practice things like this...

As a proxy, you could take some paper, tape it down to a piece of wood (or something else rigid) and put a few layers of spray varnish on it (or acrylic gesso). That would give you a decent surface to practice on (essentially the paper becomes a backer for the acrylic, and a lot less absorbant).

You can google 'spot varnish example' and get a lot of images that show the general idea, although you would really need to get some print examples to see the good stuff. I know that sappi papers has put out excellent examples, although that was 15 years ago. You can see a .pdf here https://www.sappietc.com/article/idea-exchange-varnish-techniques although that would only give ideas.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Thanks again for the loads of good info. Don't have any acrylic varnish on hand but will definitely consider this as an alternative. Had not considered this.

I have to to wait to download the PDF until I change locations, but I'd actually googled examples just after you mentioned the technique. I am assuming that what appears to be two different colors in these examples is just one, but the spot glossing makes it look like two tones. It definitely theoretically looks good, and something that looks like it could work on miniatures. I'm not bold enough at this point to experiment, but I may have to considering how effective it looks. Maybe I should just create a hot spot on the shield, representing the sun's reflection, and place a dot of gloss on it. Should just make the glow of it look that much stronger. It can't ruin anything, right?

Did you see the example mini I showed where the guy used a clear lacquer? Ever heard of this stuff?

What do you know about gloss acrylic enamel? I experimented with some white, and it actually behaves like a watered down PVA glue. Very easy to leave ugly brush strokes if you put it on too thick. But then I watered it down extremely, and it left just the faintest, almost unrecognizable white cloudiness that had reflective qualities. Maybe this would work as a sort of halo around my hotspot. I'll experiment some more though, because I'd like to see how it mixed with regular acrylic paint. If this works out I could mix it into my NMM recipes to give my metals some additional shininess without having the negative effects of gloss.

But again, I think the clear lacquer that dude applied was great.

 

[chaos spawn]

lacquer is just another word for enamel or varnish. So it's just glossy varnish he used. I also experimented with glossy varnish on some minis in the past. I remember usig it on shiny armour or to get a wet look for tounges, eyes, whatever. I think I applied it with a brush if it was just a smaller spot. Sometimes I coated the whole mini in clossy varnish using my airbrush and then made some matte areas by applying matte varnish with a brush. I remember doing this with an undead lord that now has a very shiny armour .

edith says: looked at the picture ones moren and on his comment: I think what he ment by saying "clear" is transparent! Apparently he painted the mini in silver and then applied transparent blue colour to it. In the end it seems he coated the whole thing with glossy varnish.

There are transparent acrylic air-brush-colours. I've used them in the past in a similar way on artworks and sometimes on minis too. Paint something black and white and then spray transparent colour over it. Or- as he did- Paint it in metallic colours and then coat it with transparent colours.

try these ones for example: http://www.createx.de/index.php/createx-airbrush-colors.html

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

I would definitely like to see any photos you have of minis like these, if you happen to have any?

Thank you Edith. Whoever you are. :music: Never heard of these transparent types of paint. I'll have to keep those in mind, though not sure how they would look over or a part of some NMM. Interesting medium though. And his glossing did not look as bad as many have scared me into thinking it would. But then again, it's a picture where he could just be capturing the perfect angle of light, AND he is using true metallics. Intriguing nonetheless, and something rest I'll have to put in my tool box.

 

[chaos spawn]

I must have painted over 1000 minis so far always developing new techniques to get faster and better. I must be one of the fastest painters in the world having my very own style of painting and using techniques you never heard of. Being a hardcore Warhammer tournament player I always had to paint loads of minis within limited time. On most of my minis I did not spend more than 3 hours so don't expect them to be in highest standard (my personal record was 10 Skinks in 2 hours but they were only TTS, not very pretty). I think most of my minis would get a rating between 5 and 6 here and not more as I never used wet blending as I found it to time consuming and I never used NMM as I found it's doing it the hard way just for showing off and most NMM I see is not looking like real metal. Why use a hard, time consuming technique if it doesn't even look good in the end? Some of my better minis are in my galery but none of them ever had a rating over 7. I use highlights in a very smooth way so many people don't see that I highlighted at all (and sometimes that is right too )

So, I can show you pictures of my minis and I can tell you something about interesting techniques but my focus was always on making it easier and faster rather than getting high-end results. I found out that if you achive a certain, fairly high, level of paintig (the level I had) you can only get little better by investing much more time and I never wanted to do that.

In will post some pictures later.

btw. edith is just another word for edit.

 

[Humanitarian]

What do you know about gloss acrylic enamel? I experimented with some white, and it actually behaves like a watered down PVA glue. Very easy to leave ugly brush strokes if you put it on too thick. But then I watered it down extremely, and it left just the faintest, almost unrecognizable white cloudiness that had reflective qualities. Maybe this would work as a sort of halo around my hotspot.

FWIW, "acrylic enamel" is marketing speak, which can confuse people. Enamel paints (sometimes referred to as oil based, or alkyd paints) are oil based, dry with a very high gloss, and are extremely durable. Acrylic Enamel paints are (or at least should be! Marketing never met a term they couldn't use randomly! ) water based acrylics (similar to the standard acrylic paint you would use for miniature painting) that are designed to mimic the performance of enamel paints. So, they have high gloss, good durability (although not as good as a true enamel). makes sense that you would see a glossy white. If you overcoat that with a sealer, you will lose the glossiness.

Mixing it with regular paint will likely up the gloss of the regular paint a little, although my educated guess that you are still going to end up with something that would be pretty matte or satin.

Like chaos spawn says, lacquer is another word for enamel/varnish/clear coat/etc. While these words get used interchangeably, technically an enamel is usually oil based, lacquers are usually solvent based (although now the same materials are getting used in water based formulations) and most of the brush on sealers are more of a water based acrylic clear. As an example, spray coatings (both matte and gloss) would be considered lacquers as they are solvent based acrylics. As a fun side note, lacquer has been expanded from the historical use (where a specific material was used) to the more general use as a protective coating -- so, you can get acrylic lacquers, two part reactive lacquers, nitrocellulose based lacquers, etc.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

.................btw. edith is just another word for edit.

To each their own, and I certainly value your experience and technical know-how. Sounds like you are a gamer first and a painter second. This does NOT mean that your a crappy painter. Rather, it means you have a wide area if expertise and the potential for a lot to learn from.

Dont worry about a pic if it is too much trouble. Just wanted to see how it would look on several examples, especially on top of armor.

Ahh, the NMM vs metallics debate. In my humblest of opinions, and not considering time as a constraint, TMM is for historical figures, NMM is for fantasy. NMM has the advantage of looking flashier. Even when the artist is not following the exact rules of light, it can really make a figure look stunning. TMM can mute this effect, but in a manner more consistent with reality. Also, NMM can look better in an online photo setting, while TMM may look better in person. Having not painted any historical military figures, I prefer the look of NMM. If I desired a metallic substance to put on my figures, I'd just forge them each tiny suits of actual armor and weapons. : )

Thanks for the loads of advice and in all seriousness I value the expertise of someone that has put that many minis onto bases over the years.

Oh, didn't know that about Edith. I was picturing some sweet old lady kicking me some genuine painting truths : )

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

FWIW, "acrylic enamel" is marketing speak, which can confuse people. Enamel paints (sometimes referred to as oil based, or alkyd paints) are oil based, dry with a very high gloss, and are extremely durable. Acrylic Enamel paints are (or at least should be! Marketing never met a term they couldn't use randomly! ) water based acrylics (similar to the standard acrylic paint you would use for miniature painting) that are designed to mimic the performance of enamel paints. So, they have high gloss, good durability (although not as good as a true enamel). makes sense that you would see a glossy white. If you overcoat that with a sealer, you will lose the glossiness.

Ok, got it. Sounds like it is exactly as the name implies. There are actually a ton of colors included. My goal would be to somehow use this with NMM for a shiny metal effect. So this might mean that I mix some in for my range of highlights, using more and more the closer I get to pure white. In my brief experiment with the stuff, though, it didn't behave very well. I think I need to find a medium conducive to thinning the stuff. It doesn't spread very well and it's very easy to leave brush marks, just as you warned me it would be with gloss.

Mixing it with regular paint will likely up the gloss of the regular paint a little, although my educated guess that you are still going to end up with something that would be pretty matte or satin.

Like chaos spawn says, lacquer is another word for enamel/varnish/clear coat/etc. While these words get used interchangeably, technically an enamel is usually oil based, lacquers are usually solvent based (although now the same materials are getting used in water based formulations) and most of the brush on sealers are more of a water based acrylic clear. As an example, spray coatings (both matte and gloss) would be considered lacquers as they are solvent based acrylics. As a fun side note, lacquer has been expanded from the historical use (where a specific material was used) to the more general use as a protective coating -- so, you can get acrylic lacquers, two part reactive lacquers, nitrocellulose based lacquers, etc.

*head explodes from intellectual overload. Wow. Seems like there are many terms like this in the miniature painting world. Glaze for example. Anyway, yeah I googled "miniature painting lacquer" and got some interesting results that point to lacquer as a particular substance as you suggest. If I remember correctly, it has an Asian origin???

What do you think the artist used in the example I provided? From the sounds of it he put down a metallic silver of sorts, then glossed, and then used a transparent blue. This sounds like a cutting edge way of doing things. I think he was onto something, though I am afraid our language differences will make any discourse on the subject a challenge.

 

[chaos spawn]

To each their own, and I certainly value your experience and technical know-how. Sounds like you are a gamer first and a painter second. This does NOT mean that your a crappy painter. Rather, it means you have a wide area if expertise and the potential for a lot to learn from.

I don't think I'm a crappy painter. I just wanted to point out that if you want to learn new technics in order to paint really high-end minis and get high ratings from 8 or more I am the wrong one to ask, but I tried many things over the 20+ years painting minis so I have some experience. I just never made it to perfection because my main goal was to always field a completely painted army, even when playing 10000 points WHFB and almost every mini I've ever painted was for playing and not for showcase.

Dont worry about a pic if it is too much trouble. Just wanted to see how it would look on several examples, especially on top of armor.

View attachment 27362
Heres a pic. Actually this one was an accident. I tried something new for the metals and it did not quite work out as it should. I tried to save it as good as possible and that's the result. A glossy black and gold armour :neutral:.

Ahh, the NMM vs metallics debate. In my humblest of opinions, and not considering time as a constraint, TMM is for historical figures, NMM is for fantasy. NMM has the advantage of looking flashier. Even when the artist is not following the exact rules of light, it can really make a figure look stunning. TMM can mute this effect, but in a manner more consistent with reality. Also, NMM can look better in an online photo setting, while TMM may look better in person. Having not painted any historical military figures, I prefer the look of NMM. If I desired a metallic substance to put on my figures, I'd just forge them each tiny suits of actual armor and weapons. : )

Thanks for the loads of advice and in all seriousness I value the expertise of someone that has put that many minis onto bases over the years.

Oh, didn't know that about Edith. I was picturing some sweet old lady kicking me some genuine painting truths : )

Well I personally don't like NMM very much. There has been a hype when it came up and since then everyone used NMM on his minis and even though it mostly looks terrible they get better ratings in competitions just for using that technique. I'm not impressed by NMM as other are. The opposite is the case: It's stupit do do NMM unless you are a real master in it. Then, it can look really great and It's worth the effort, but most of the painters are just not good enough for that. But that's just my opinion.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Agreed. Painting figures for tabletop is a completely different experience with a different set of expectations, but the sheer quantity allows for a lot of learning and experimentation.

Thanks for for the example picture. Looks good and I definitely appreciate the effect. I really need to see it on top of some sky earth NMM to see what this looks like.

Will always be an NMM lover. Like I said earlier, metallics have their place in historical miniature painting. But NMM is what makes a mini magical, for me anyway. It's no mistake that all if the greatest artists are applying TMM by using the same philosophy that is used with NMM. Bailey03 is a great TMM artist. NMM is probably easier, TBH than TMM. I've just never been a fan if GWs slapping on 3 types of metallic gold then edge highlighting with silver. They aren't fooling anyone with that look. Also, with metallic paints, if I wanted paint made of metal to paint metal objects, then I'd ask for some paint made of skin to paint a skin tone (joking). But again, I realize you dont have time for NMM in your endeavors. You say that you don't see many people pull it off correctly. I believe the opposite to be true. Most people trying it for even the first time come away with good results. Is every highlight placed correctly? No, but my eyes tell me otherwise. Anyway-happy painting!!

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

lIl ûknow many of you are just DYING to see how I am doing with my Khorne Exalted Hero.

Pretty damn good, thank you all for asking. You are all so kind...

Some of the gold is done, some is still WIP. Also, will be adding froEn cracks by free hand later.

http://s1329.photobucket.com/user/benjibaird/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zps5725f773.jpg.html

 

[chaos spawn]

Agreed. Painting figures for tabletop is a completely different experience with a different set of expectations, but the sheer quantity allows for a lot of learning and experimentation.

Thanks for for the example picture. Looks good and I definitely appreciate the effect. I really need to see it on top of some sky earth NMM to see what this looks like.

Don't do it! It wouldn't look good with sky eart NMM. look at this:
View attachment 27414
If I told someone the gold in this picture was NMM he would believe me and say: Well done. Actually we have a kind of sky earth effect here just because of the glossy varnish. The glossy varnish reflects just like a polished metal surface would. The gold on this helmet consists only of 2 colours. One darker gold tone and one that is brighter for the highlights. I highlighted only very, very little, almost nothing and it would even work without highlights.

What I'm saying is: You use glossy varnish to have real reflections. The glossy varnish causes the bright lines on the cylindrical parts like where the horns are attachsd. If you paint some NMM on the same spots it would be too much.

You usually paint NMM to get a glossy shining effect on matte surfaces. That's what it is for. Don't mess it up by using glossy varnish.

Will always be an NMM lover. Like I said earlier, metallics have their place in historical miniature painting. But NMM is what makes a mini magical, for me anyway. It's no mistake that all if the greatest artists are applying TMM by using the same philosophy that is used with NMM. Bailey03 is a great TMM artist. NMM is probably easier, TBH than TMM. I've just never been a fan if GWs slapping on 3 types of metallic gold then edge highlighting with silver. They aren't fooling anyone with that look. Also, with metallic paints, if I wanted paint made of metal to paint metal objects, then I'd ask for some paint made of skin to paint a skin tone (joking). But again, I realize you dont have time for NMM in your endeavors. You say that you don't see many people pull it off correctly. I believe the opposite to be true. Most people trying it for even the first time come away with good results. Is every highlight placed correctly? No, but my eyes tell me otherwise. Anyway-happy painting!!

Most of the people saying NMM is better never saw a really good TMM.

What do you think about these Metal-effects?
View attachment 27415View attachment 27416

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Oh don't get me wrong, I have seen some awesome TMM. Bailey03 does some historical figures in true metallic that look great. I've seen it executed flawlessly. The examples you provided look great. They look realistic as can be. NMM would serve to exaggerate those elements and make them look starker and more vibrant. While this looks less real, I like the look on fantasy figures. Just a preference of mine but I think that a large part of the fantasy miniature community feels the same way.

As as far as my using gloss on SENMM, that seems to be the consensus. Don't mess it up with gloss. But my question then evolved into can I selectively varnish small areas, like just a couple of highlights. Or another question that arose from this thread was are there some transparent paints or other medium that I could use to increase the shininess of the shield. Most of the questions have been answered that I was wondering. I think I may use one tiny spot of gloss on the hot spot of my SENMM shield. It'll be a tiny white dot representing the sun reflecting off of the shield. I think a dot of gloss will serve to exaggerate it as a hot spot.

 

[chaos spawn]

I never used those spray cans to varnish my minis. I always used my air-brush so I always had varnish in small pots like the colours and so I could also apply it with a brush if I wanted to. I would recommend this for you too (do you have an air-brush?). This way you can apply glossy varnish on small spots even after varnishing the hole mini in matte varnish.It could look good if you only make the brightest highlights, the white lines and spots glossy, this way you might be able to increase the impression of reflection. If it looks bad just cover the spots with matte varnish again. This wouldn't ruin your mini.

NMM vs TMM: I think on en elf for example SENMM can make perfect sense. In general it looks a bit like chrome. Good on motorbikes or elves. Not so useful on Nurgle Chaoswarriors . For Tzeentchwarriors however it could also be fine.

Long time ago I saw a pictures in a WIP thread of a technique called "polishing" or something. The guy sanded the armour of the unpainted mini with very fine sandpaper and then polished it. He then applied some shading/darklining and covered the armour with glossy varnish. The effect was stunning. A TMM-chrome-effect . I never tried that exactly (too timt consuming ) but it inspired me. On the two minis I have posted I have used some special colours. Would you believe me if I said that I didnot add any highlights to the armour of the two? I did not even apply any varnish to the metal parts. I polished them . They might look quite dull if you put them in the shadow, but absolutely great with some bright light. I think the left one took only 2 hours to paint and the other one about 5. Not too bad if you look at the results eh?

Sometimes I wonder why no one really tries to go for something new. Everybody paints minis in the same way. Some are better, some not but very rarely someone invents something new.

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

It's the middle of the night here and my sleeping issues allow me to wake up and answer you, but I'll keep it short because I have to TRY for some more sleep if I want more than 2 hours tonight.

The SENMM I am using is for Sigvald, a Slaaneshi Chaos Lord. You know how they like their armor to be pretty. I may rank him up with a group of Chosen. But yes, it's not appropriate for everyone.

Um, yeah. Wow. You didn't highlight? Honestly, I thought those last two minis were two examples of good TMM you found on the internet. Not necessarily yours, but minis you used to prove the point that metallics can look damn good. So imagine my shock when you say they are yours and they aren't highlighted. Damn good. I'm amazed. You just polished the white metal with sandpaper and didn't paint over it? Or what?

Totally with you on pioneering new techniques. That is why I am asking many of these questions. I also came across some gloss acrylic enamel, and was asking if Humanitarian-a paint expert-knew much about their properties. If you think about it, this Art form is very new, and so there has to be a lot out there that hasn't been explored. But just spot glossing the suns reflection onto the shield, I think, will lend a lot to its chrome quality.

I must say, you are a damn fine sculptor as well. And from other examples of your art, it looks like you do much more than just this. Very talented.

 

[chaos spawn]

The SENMM I am using is for Sigvald, a Slaaneshi Chaos Lord. You know how they like their armor to be pretty. I may rank him up with a group of Chosen. But yes, it's not appropriate for everyone.

For Sigvalid, of course, SENMM is absolutely appropiate.

Um, yeah. Wow. You didn't highlight? Honestly, I thought those last two minis were two examples of good TMM you found on the internet. Not necessarily yours, but minis you used to prove the point that metallics can look damn good. So imagine my shock when you say they are yours and they aren't highlighted. Damn good. I'm amazed. You just polished the white metal with sandpaper and didn't paint over it? Or what?

No, I read about (and saw pictures) someone else doing that. I did something else (easier, of course): I used special paints designed for a polished steel look. Some manufacturers of plastic model kits sell such special paints. When you apply the paint it looks greyish or black and matte. When you start polishing the dried paint with a soft tissue it gets a very metallic look. It's more like a metallic surface rather than the colours you can get for Minis from GW or Vallejo. The good thing is: the regions you don't reach when polishing stay matte and don't reflect. Everything else begins to shine. The "highlights" you see on the two pictures are light reflecting from the surface of the minis (can you get a more realistic look than that?). When in the shadow the minis look a bit dull, so I was a bit dissapointed at first. But when you point a source of light onto them -> Bam! Great effect! The left one was painted with a colour called "polished steel" and the other one I think "Black Iron". I don't think many people know about this easy way of getting realistic metal effects. Often it's just a question of what material/tools you use to get a good result so always keep your eyes open. By the way: when using these colours don't coat them with varnish, no matter if glossy or matte, it will ruin the effect (like it did with my undead lord I posted earlyer, his armour now looks like glossy black instead of Iron)

Totally with you on pioneering new techniques. That is why I am asking many of these questions. I also came across some gloss acrylic enamel, and was asking if Humanitarian-a paint expert-knew much about their properties. If you think about it, this Art form is very new, and so there has to be a lot out there that hasn't been explored. But just spot glossing the suns reflection onto the shield, I think, will lend a lot to its chrome quality.

I must say, you are a damn fine sculptor as well. And from other examples of your art, it looks like you do much more than just this. Very talented.

Thanks

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Ahh I see. I had no idea such a "paint" existed. As far as it only looking good when you put it in the light, that would be acceptable to me. I'm sure that plenty of "9-10" scoring minis on here wouldn't look as good if the artist took the picture under different lighting conditions, or from a different angle. That's the advantage of sharing online, you can choose the most flattering aspects of the mini and only share those angles.

 

[chaos spawn]

How do you like this one: http://www.coolminiornot.com/356863 The chrome-warrior .

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

He looks great. If I didn't know any different, Id say he was painted with that chrome flavored paint they make. Do you paint the minis that you sculpt?

 

[BloodFather of Kharnath]

Just a quick update, pictures to follow shortly. Things are coming along great for my Khorne Exalted Hero. I haven't started to freehand the cracks just yet, but IMO if executed properly, that is what is going to take him from a 6 to a 7. If the freehand banner works, which I am less certain of but am
having fun practicing, then we will take it from a 7 to 8.

I have been loosely considering, if all of the above look great, to scratch build a War Sled pulled by Chaos Hounds or some other appropriately nasty beasts. The banner(s) would be streaming from the back of the sled, the hounds would be thundering down a snowy embankment, the sled might be semi airborne. Just a rough idea, IF everything looks perftec at that point.

Excited.