Firearms & co... hate or love them?

[Orb]

Originally posted by philologus
As far as handguns making murder easier, it depends. The highest death toll for school massacres in the U.S. happened in 1927. No firearms involved. It might have been the largest mass murder bodycount as well but I\'m not sure. 45 dead, 58 wounded.

LINK

but that is a single example. The point is the (relatively) easy access to firearms in some places makes the likelyhood of a death through firearms more probable, surely.

of course death and murder can happen without guns, but guns are designed to kill, be it a hunting rifle or a semi-automatic military weapon. If guns are more easily availble, the probability of them being used is increased.

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Shawn R. L.
Well said. BTW all Dutch people dont live in windmills either - FYI

But, strangely enough, they do all wear wooden shoes, and insist everyone pays their own bill.lol

 

[vincegamer]

but when are they going to fix that damn so the brave little boy can go home?

 

[Legacy Account]

\" I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England?
No one has handguns in England, not even the cops. True or false? True.
Now-in England last year, they had fourteen deaths from handguns. FFFFFourteen. Now-the United States, and I think you know how we feel about handguns - woooo, I\'m getting a warm tingly feeling just saying the fucking word, to be honest with you. I swear to you, I am hard. Twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

Now let\'s go through those numbers again, because they\'re a little baffling at first glance.
England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - woooo, I\'m getting a stiffy - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

But there\'s no connection, and you\'d be a fool and a Communist to make one. There\'s no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That\'s absolute proof.

You know, fourteen deaths from handguns.
Probably American tourists, too.\"

Says it all for me really....

 

[Rodnik]

\" I was over in England. You ever been to England, anyone, been to England?

Been there. Won\'t go back, \'cause they won\'t let me have my guns.

So how many deaths in England from sharp, pointy sticks, SM?

 

[vincegamer]

A recent study of emergency room trauma cases in Great Britain found that most of the severe trauma injuries in the UK are caused by







feet

 

[matty1001]

Originally posted by Rodnik
So how many deaths in England from sharp, pointy sticks, SM?

Hundreds! With all our castles and barricades its not uncommon for about 50-100 PER DAY.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Spacemunkie

Now let\'s go through those numbers again, because they\'re a little baffling at first glance.
England, where no one has guns, fffffffourteen deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - woooo, I\'m getting a stiffy - twenty-three thousand deaths from handguns.

But there\'s no connection, and you\'d be a fool and a Communist to make one. There\'s no connection between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone. There have been studies made and there is no connection at all there. Yes. That\'s absolute proof.

You know, fourteen deaths from handguns.
Probably American tourists, too.\"

Says it all for me really....

That\'s a bit silly really, I mean you really can\'t have gun deaths without guns, just like you can\'t have car crashes without cars.
It\'s like saying in the Crusades there were no gun deaths, therefore it was safer, while taking sharp, pointy, swords out of the equation.
It\'s a silly comparison.
Try violent crimes vs violent crimes and see whether guns make a difference.
Also add in population difference, and a point I think is often ignored, population density.
Didn\'t you guys just have someone killed in the street with an axe, in broad daylight?

In other words, you\'re looking at guns being the issue, when they are not. Violent Deaths are the true issue, and they can be and will happen in more ways than with guns.
If I truly want to kill someone, not having a gun will not stop me.

Guns are not the true problem. People are. since the first man found a sharp rock we have been killing each other in new and inventive ways. Taking guns away won\'t solve that.

Also, between being bludgeoned to death, stabbed to death (which always seems to be multiple stab wounds), hit by a car, or shot, I\'d rather be shot.

 

[philologus]

It\'s a little difficult to compare apples to apples crime stats but I believe looking at the 2 following links will provide som insight. One is from the British Home office crime stats report for 2005-2006 in England and Wales.

UK Crime

The other is from the US FBI crime stats database for 2005.

US Crime

If you compare by population and look at violent crime per 100,000 it appears that the US averages about 470-500 violent crimes per 100,000 while the UK averages about 2300. It also appears that The British Home Office doesn\'t include attacks by or on those under 16:

\"Yet the attacks are not included in the Government’s key measure of crime, which IGNORES offences on under-16s.\"
Sun article


I have heard some of the natives express their disdain for the Sun so I don\'t know how accurate their article is, but the govt.s\' respective reports seems to indicate that violent crime is as bad in England or worse than the U.S.

I know others have listed statistics on these threads before but these are fairly recent reports from both govts which may shed some light.

EDIT: Apparently the British report covers Sept. 2005 to September 2006. It is NOT 2 years worth of data being compared to 1 year.

 

[Orb]

Murders with firearms (per capita) by country:
US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
UK: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

mmmmm go figure

Murders (per capita) by country:
US: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
UK: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people

conclusion - guns do an awful lot of murders in the US. Clearly people will find other means but still does make up for the number of guns.

Source: Nation Master

I think SM\'s stats are a little off but the stats still speak for themselves.

ED; guns are JUST as capable as maiming as other weapons........why you\'d prefer to be shot I\'ve no idea. You still desperately cling to the idea that guns are good. It\'s impossible to seperate gun ownership/availability from number of gun deaths

Edit; Phil - I guess the US would be great if it wasn\'t for all those gun crimes!!!!

 

[philologus]

Orb, their seems to be some disparity between our sources. Do you know how Nationmaster arrives at their figures? I am curious and don\'t know about nationmaster as I\'ve had no exposure to them.

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by Orb
ED; guns are JUST as capable as maiming as other weapons........why you\'d prefer to be shot I\'ve no idea. You still desperately cling to the idea that guns are good. It\'s impossible to seperate gun ownership/availability from number of gun deaths

It\'s far less painful, take it from someone who has been stabbed.

And I never said Guns are good. Guns are inanimate objects, incapable of being good or evil.
People, however, are capable for being either or both.
Guns are tools, how one uses the tool is not the fault of the tool itself.

 

[Orb]

Where is all this data from?
NationMaster compiles statistics from such sources as the CIA World Factbook, United Nations, World Health Organization, World Bank, World Resources Institute, UNESCO, UNICEF and OECD

I can quite believe the violent crime statistic figures you quote, although it is feasible that not all violent crime gets reported - murders are pretty hard to cover up relative to a handbag snatch that involves a struggle and thus may be reported as violent crime.

It\'s also feasible that the 49% of the US population that own guns acts as a deterent to violent crime - you never know if it\'s EvilDave you\'re about to mug. But whatever stats you find, murders from guncrime in the US is significantly higher than those nations that do not have such gun ownership.

 

[Orb]

Originally posted by Evil Dave

Originally posted by Orb
ED; guns are JUST as capable as maiming as other weapons........why you\'d prefer to be shot I\'ve no idea. You still desperately cling to the idea that guns are good. It\'s impossible to seperate gun ownership/availability from number of gun deaths

It\'s far less painful, take it from someone who has been stabbed.

And I never said Guns are good. Guns are inanimate objects, incapable of being good or evil.
People, however, are capable for being either or both.
Guns are tools, how one uses the tool is not the fault of the tool itself.

but regardless of that. it\'s the availabilty of them to the population that makes death from it more likely.

 

[treide]

For the gun-fans out there, do you have problems with legislation/requirements for gun ownership? I personally think waiting periods, background checks, etc. are reasonable to try to keep nutcases away from firearms. I also would not be opposed to a mandatory gun safety course, and maybe even periodic \"recertification\" requirements so someone who is a collector who subsequently goes loony doesn\'t fall through the cracks.

Does anyone think such interventions really make a difference?

 

[Ritual]

Violent crimes and murder is not the same thing. With the rate of violent crimes being higher in the UK one could assume that the murder rate was equally higher, but it\'s not...

In Sweden it\'s VERY uncommon that someone is killed with a handgun. It\'s usually a couple of incidents each year where criminals shoot each other... Most killings by fire arms are made with hunting weapons, which are the easiest to get a permit for and consequently being the most frequently owned fire arms.

 

[funnymouth]

sure.

as has been pointed out in other threads, there are countries where gun ownership is the norm that have low crime rates. im fairly sure that most of \'em have manditory military service (one hell of a gun safety course). can anyone wrangle some stats on other countries with similar gun laws to the US? we are a bunch of gun slingin\' cowboys after all....

 

[Orb]

I\'m not sure what countries have similar gun laws to the US (And I\'m thinking 1st world developed countries here) but a number have armed policemen or mandatory miltary service where there is a maintained reservist force that keep their fiearm after active duty. Gun crime is still low releative to the US but the suicide rate is significantly higher higher in those countries (Switzerland for example).

What other developed countries have similar gun laws to the US?

 

[Modderrhu]

In South Africa, gun-ownership is a privilege, not a defensible right. But, can someone explain this?

According to NationMaster, South Africa has, murders per capita;
0.719782 per 1,000 people with firearms
0.496008 per 1,000 people

Let\'s see, that means that more people have been murdered with firearms per capita, than people have been murdered? 31,918 people murdered with firearms, of 21,995 murdered all-in-all? Is my interpretation all screwed up, or does NationMaster not have plausible stats? How surprised I was to see South Africa at the top of two of those four stats. Not.

Thinking of rights and privileges, if gun-ownership is a right in the US, does the US constitution recognise an individual\'s right to food and water?

 

[philologus]

Originally posted by Orb

Where is all this data from?
NationMaster compiles statistics from such sources as the CIA World Factbook, United Nations, World Health Organization, World Bank, World Resources Institute, UNESCO, UNICEF and OECD

I can quite believe the violent crime statistic figures you quote, although it is feasible that not all violent crime gets reported - murders are pretty hard to cover up relative to a handbag snatch that involves a struggle and thus may be reported as violent crime.

It\'s also feasible that the 49% of the US population that own guns acts as a deterent to violent crime - you never know if it\'s EvilDave you\'re about to mug. But whatever stats you find, murders from guncrime in the US is significantly higher than those nations that do not have such gun ownership.

I don\'t necessarily believe most statistics (I work with them everyday in a business environement). However, Since both sets of info come from the respective govt.s, is there a more accurate source? The population statistics in the reports I listed jive with the CIA factbook (which is my most visited site BTW). I know for certain I don\'t trust the UN to run numbers (or anything else for that matter)!