Firearms & co... hate or love them?

Talion

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave

Okay bad wording on my behalf. Could you live without your gun? You woke up and they had all suddenly vanished. Would you go straight out and get another to replace it?
Sure, jsut as I would buy a new hammer if they all dissapeared, or a new screwdriver, or a new lawnmower.

[/quote]

Okay can\'t quite see tha comparison. A hammer is an essential tool (those who don\'t have one rely on someone with one)
, a gun obviously isn\'t becuase everyone in the world doesn\'t have one, or rely on one.

But basically what you are saying is, you feel that you need to have a gun. You couldn\'t live without one.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Talion
Originally posted by Evil Dave

Okay bad wording on my behalf. Could you live without your gun? You woke up and they had all suddenly vanished. Would you go straight out and get another to replace it?
Sure, jsut as I would buy a new hammer if they all dissapeared, or a new screwdriver, or a new lawnmower.

Okay can\'t quite see tha comparison. A hammer is an essential tool, a gun obviously isn\'t becuase everyone in the world doesn\'t have one.

But basically what you are saying is, you feel that you need to have a gun. You couldn\'t live without one.

[/quote]
No. What I am saying, is that even a hammer isn\'t an essential tool. It\'s only needed when you need to drive nails.
A gun is not an essential tool either, it\'s only needed when you need to kill or threaten death in order to gain compliance, especially when killing or compliance results in the non fatality of yourself or your loved ones. This can be from snakes, alligators, other wild animals, or even the most dangerous one of all: Humans.

Do I need a gun? No.
Nor do I need a a hammer, a car, a TV, electricity, a job, or numerous other things.
However, I choose to have them because they all serve purposes. They all make one task or another easier.

Life isn\'t merely about needs, it\'s about how you choose to live it.
 

Talion

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave

No. What I am saying, is that even a hammer isn\'t an essential tool. It\'s only needed when you need to drive nails.
A gun is not an essential tool either, it\'s only needed when you need to kill or threaten death in order to gain compliance, especially when killing or compliance results in the non fatality of yourself or your loved ones. This can be from snakes, alligators, other wild animals, or even the most dangerous one of all: Humans.

Do I need a gun? No.
Nor do I need a a hammer, a car, a TV, electricity, a job, or numerous other things.
However, I choose to have them because they all serve purposes. They all make one task or another easier.

So if you were in another country you\'d still have a gun?

because it\'s your right to have a gun, you\'ll have one whether you truly need one or not, which you don\'t cause you said you don\'t need one.

So anybody can have anything if they have the right to do so, and feel the need to do so. Any nation can have Nuclear weapons. It\'s their right, they may feel the need to do so.

It\'s a slippery slope.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Talion

So if you were in another country you\'d still have a gun?

Why would I live in another country? Why should my owning a gun bother someone 10 miles away much less 2000+ miles away?
I\'m a good shot, but even I can\'t hit you from here to Wales.

because it\'s your right to have a gun, you\'ll have one whether you truly need one or not, which you don\'t cause you said you don\'t need one.
Ah, but you never know when I might, just as I might need a hammer. It\'s called being prepared.
I don\'t \"need\" a brick home to withstand hurricane force winds, the government can protect me,but I have one just in case.
I don\'t \"need\" a retirement fund, we have Social Security, but you\'d better believe I have one just in case.

So anybody can have anything if they have the right to do so, and feel the need to do so. Any nation can have Nuclear weapons. It\'s their right, they may feel the need to do so.

It\'s a slippery slope.
Comparing Nuclear Weapons to guns is a bit silly. Especially since those involved signed the Non-proliferation act, in which by signing it they voluntarily gave up the right to produce WMD\'s. It\'s not just about self-defense, it\'s also a matter of not being trustworthy. Especially when some countries are calling for the extermination of others.
 

airhead

Coffin Dodger / Keymaster
If just MY guns suddenly dissapeared? I\'d quickly go out and replace them and my dog.

If ALL guns suddenly dissappeared (and I mean ALL, not just the ones that get turned in) it would be a nicer place to live.

There is a pro-gun sentiment that is very true - \"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.\" This is very true. There are an abundance of guns in this country that are untracked, unmarked and have gone through several illeagle transactions to the point that there is no way to know where they are or who has them. Across town, it is very common on any given Saturday night to hear gunfire. This is what most of the law-abiding concealed carry permitted people are protecting themselves against.
 

Evil Dave

New member
I\'d also like to point out that you apparently have faith in your local police and government to see you through a bad time or disaster.
After working with our federal government, and my state government for a number of years, I do not have much faith.
After witnessing first hand the LA Riots, and New Orleans during Katrina, I do not have much faith.
 

Talion

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave

Why would I live in another country? Why should my owning a gun bother someone 10 miles away much less 2000+ miles away?

I\'m trying to figure out if it\'s the country and it\'s type of crime that causes you to have a gun.

Ah, but you never know when I might, just as I might need a hammer. It\'s called being prepared.

that\'s called paranoia.

Comparing Nuclear Weapons to guns is a bit silly. Especially since those involved signed the Non-proliferation act, in which by signing it they voluntarily gave up the right to produce WMD\'s. It\'s not just about self-defense, it\'s also a matter of not being trustworthy.

so is comparing a hammer to a gun.

Who decides who is trust worthy. You refer to Iran, I\'ve seen or heard no reason or proof why they shouldn\'t have nukes. As long as they don\'t wave them in my face then they have the right to have them, same as you have the right to have a gun, as long as you don\'t wave it in my face.

You are contradicting yourself, in one hand you have a gun because you can, and it keeps you prepared for the worst.

In the other hand you don\'t want other people to have guns or whatever because you see it as threatening.

Especially when some countries are calling for the extermination of others.

Let\'s be honest Bush is just more diplomatic at saying the same thing.
 

Swordwind

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave
Comparing Nuclear Weapons to guns is a bit silly. Especially since those involved signed the Non-proliferation act, in which by signing it they voluntarily gave up the right to produce WMD\'s. It\'s not just about self-defense, it\'s also a matter of not being trustworthy. Especially when some countries are calling for the extermination of others.

What he said. Say some nut decided to drop a nuke on New York city. Bang! 8 million people dead instantly. Not even Metal Storm can compete with that! Comparing conventional firearms to NBC weapons is like comparing the M16 to a cheese grater.
 

Talion

New member
Originally posted by Swordwind
Originally posted by Evil Dave
Comparing Nuclear Weapons to guns is a bit silly. Especially since those involved signed the Non-proliferation act, in which by signing it they voluntarily gave up the right to produce WMD\'s. It\'s not just about self-defense, it\'s also a matter of not being trustworthy. Especially when some countries are calling for the extermination of others.

What he said. Say some nut decided to drop a nuke on New York city. Bang! 8 million people dead instantly. Not even Metal Storm can compete with that! Comparing conventional firearms to NBC weapons is like comparing the M16 to a cheese grater.

It\'s the principle 1 death 8 deaths 10 millions deaths, a deaths a death. If 8 million people got nuked and 1 of my family got shot, I\'d be more concerned of the 1 memeber of family.
 

supervike

Super Moderator
Originally posted by darthfoley
These discussions always break down into the same thing - EvilDave and a few others defending America\'s Bill of Rights, and an equally vociferous European/Aussie group saying that our \'obsession\' with guns is the main cause of violence in our country.

I\'m not saying there\'s anything wrong with that...but it\'s true. :) :innocent:

Bingo. These threads are much like banging your head against the wall...No one is going to change the others minds.

I can\'t say the threads bother me though either....you can tell by the length of it, that it obviously interests folks. Just like conversations in real life that become circular, I tend to duck out at that point.

Somewhere along the line you\'d think getting the last word or trying to prove your unprovable point would grow tiring.

I know what I believe, and I do honestly listen to others (and have changed my mind about some things) but all in all its not terribly important for me to be right or have the last word. There are several others that may disagree though.
 

Ritual

New member
Originally posted by airhead
There is a pro-gun sentiment that is very true - \"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.\"
And if ordinary people might carry guns then ALL outlaws, more or less, will have guns. Criminals aren\'t stupid... If the guy you want to rob don\'t have any weapons a knife will do. If he might be armed then you get a gun. If he most likely has a gun you will shoot him first, then take his money...
 

Talion

New member
Originally posted by supervike
Originally posted by darthfoley
These discussions always break down into the same thing - EvilDave and a few others defending America\'s Bill of Rights, and an equally vociferous European/Aussie group saying that our \'obsession\' with guns is the main cause of violence in our country.

I\'m not saying there\'s anything wrong with that...but it\'s true. :) :innocent:

Bingo. These threads are much like banging your head against the wall...No one is going to change the others minds.

I can\'t say the threads bother me though either....you can tell by the length of it, that it obviously interests folks. Just like conversations in real life that become circular, I tend to duck out at that point.

Somewhere along the line you\'d think getting the last word or trying to prove your unprovable point would grow tiring.

I know what I believe, and I do honestly listen to others (and have changed my mind about some things) but all in all its not terribly important for me to be right or have the last word. There are several others that may disagree though.

There\'s only 1 point i\'m trying to get out of this convo and that is.

Do you have guns because you can, regardless of whether they are truely needed or not?

or

do you have guns because you fear for your life and family members?

it has to be one or the other

As in ED comparison.........I need a hammer to do what a hammer is used for
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Talion

Ah, but you never know when I might, just as I might need a hammer. It\'s called being prepared.

that\'s called paranoia.

Paranoia is unfounded. I have had at the very least four experinces that confirm my beliefs are not unfounded.

Comparing Nuclear Weapons to guns is a bit silly. Especially since those involved signed the Non-proliferation act, in which by signing it they voluntarily gave up the right to produce WMD\'s. It\'s not just about self-defense, it\'s also a matter of not being trustworthy.

so is comparing a hammer to a gun.

Who decides who is trust worthy. You refer to Iran, I\'ve seen or heard no reason or proof why they shouldn\'t have nukes. As long as they don\'t wave them in my face then they have the right to have them, same as you have the right to have a gun, as long as you don\'t wave it in my face.

You are contradicting yourself, in one hand you have a gun because you can, and it keeps you prepared for the worst.

In the other hand you don\'t want other people to have guns or whatever because you see it as threatening.[/quote]

Not really. A hammer is a tool, a gun is a tool.

Who decides what is untrustworthy?
When you sign an agreement that you will not do something, then do it anyway, guess what, you are untrustworthy, It\'s the way it works.

I am not contradicting myself at all.
I have never said that Iran should not have guns.
They, themselves, said they would not have WMD\'s, agreed to it and signed a treaty stating the ssame. Now they are working on them while proclaiming Israel will be wiped of the map. It is untrustworthy behavior.
I have not signed a treaty declaring I will not own guns, I have not made a pact with anyone declaring I will not own guns.
I have used guns in manners that were deemed lawful uses and showed far more restraint than the average person as 3 of the 4 experiences I could have simply pulled the trigger and been considered completely fault free in the eyes of the law.
Trust is earned. It is not a right.

I care not if others have guns, I care how others use them.
 

Talion

New member
Originally posted by Evil Dave
Originally posted by Talion

Not really. A hammer is a tool, a gun is a tool.

I disagree. Everything is a tool, a WMD is a tool, it depneds on who\'s using it.

Who decides what is untrustworthy?
When you sign an agreement that you will not do something, then do it anyway, guess what, you are untrustworthy, It\'s the way it works.

Strange I re-call a country siging up to the UN, but then doing what it wants anyway when it\'s decided action shouldn\'t go ahead. Lets take all their weapons away too.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Talion
There\'s only 1 point i\'m trying to get out of this convo and that is.

Do you have guns because you can, regardless of whether they are truely needed or not?

or

do you have guns because you fear for your life and family members?

it has to be one or the other

As in ED comparison.........I need a hammer to do what a hammer is used for

You see the problem with this is that you see it as a black and white issue. There are shades of grey.
It does not have to be one or the other. That is merely an arbitrary call on your part.

I own a gun because I can, and because, it may enable me to protect my life or my family, should the situation arise.
Fear does not enter the equation.
 

Talion

New member
I\'m trying to undertand the thinking behind it.

Let\'s try another approach.

When you walked into the gun store. Did you think.

I fancy buying a gun.......and I can protect myself and family with it.

or did you think

I think I\'d better get a gun for defence purposes..............oh and i\'ve always wanted to get one.

What was the initial reason for getting one?
 

philologus

Subgenius
Originally posted by Talion


Strange I re-call a country siging up to the UN, but then doing what it wants anyway when it\'s decided action shouldn\'t go ahead. Lets take all their weapons away too.

I\'m all for the U.S. leaving the U.N. immediately. We pay 22% (the ceiling) of the U.N.\'s annual operating budget, and more for \"peacekeeping\" (read: amateur child porn production in third world countries). Yet we have the same voting authority on the security council as nations who pay 6% or less. Out of >180 member nations, not a single representative is elected, they are appointed (often by dictators). The General Assembly has almost no function. Add to this a long line of Secretaries General with questionable pasts, and embezzling activities (making resolutions against Iraq while collecting profits from them) while in office. The U.N. charter was written by a communist that the U.S. put on trial for treason. I would say that there is good reason not to trust the U.N. I just wish we would stop paying them and kick them out of NY.
 

Evil Dave

New member
Originally posted by Talion
I\'m trying to undertand the thinking behind it.

Let\'s try another approach.

When you walked into the gun store. Did you think.

I fancy buying a gun.......and I can protect myself and family with it.

or did you think

I think I\'d better get a gun for defence purposes..............oh and i\'ve always wanted to get one.

What was the initial reason for getting one?
My first gun was given to me by my father, when I was 10 or 11.
A Remington .22, to hunt with.
From then on as I got older and stronger I went up in types and calibers of rifles and shotguns from the .20 gauge, to the .12 gauge, to the 30.06 hunting rifle.
This was not unusual in any way, shape or form.
You see, in my family we actually had to hunt to survive. It was not just a question of home protection it was a matter of eating.
After that my father introduced me to a 9mm.

Now, to those of you unfamiliar with guns, they are each designed for a specific purpose.
The .22 is an excellent mid range hunting rifle for small game such birds or squirrel.
The 20 gauge is an excellent short range shotgun for small game with less chance of missing.
the 12 gauge is a versatile all around short range shotgun, being able to use a solid slug, buck shot, or even birdshot.
The 30.06 is an excellent long range rifle designed to take down big game.
Handguns on the other hand are designed for short range dispatching of threats. It\'s why they are refered to as sidearms, as the rifle is the main weapon of choice.

So when I go shopping for a gun, it depends on the purpose I\'m intending to use it for.
For home defense, a pistol or a shotgun. For hunting a rifle.

The irony here, is that I am far more dangerous to someone else with a 30.06 hunting rifle, than a 9mm pistol or shotgun for two reasons: Range, and Accuracy.
Range, because if I miss the target, the bullet continues to fly, or if I snap and play sniper, I can easily hit people from a quarter mile to half a mile away.
Accuracy: because as above if I snap, I can acurately hit from extreme ranges and get at least 4 to 5 kill shots before people could even figure out the direction the shots were coming from.

The irony is that in every gun banning that\'s been attempted they have not even tried to touch the most dangerous weapons of all: The hunting rifle, which I\'m sure is even legal in England is it not?

They\'ve banned automatic weapons which are inherently inaccurate because of kickback, just like the triple burst, if you\'ve missed with the first shot, you\'ve more than likely missed completely.
Those that would ban assault rifles ban them because they are scary looking, not because they are proven to be any more dangerous.

A falicy by most anti-gun people is that guns are designed to kill. Wrong, some are actually designed to wound, such as the M16, and the AR15, which both fire small caliber .223 bullets. The reasoning being if you shoot a man on the battlefield and wound him, it takes another man to bring him in. Effectively taking two combatants off of the battlefield.

Now, I own a 12 guage, a .22 rifle, a 30.06 rifle, and a .40 cal pistol.
I don\'t hunt anymore, because I have no need to, however, there may come a day if unemployed, natural disaster, whatever, I may need to hunt to put food on the table.
There also may be a day due to natural disaster, evil people, whatever, that I may need to actually shoot and kill another person. It is not fear, it is not rancor, it is not irresponsibility, it is merely insuring my survival.
 
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