Firearms & co... hate or love them?

[philologus]

Originally posted by Orb
Maybe the \"bashing\" of the US comes from the fact that the US has influence over all of us, in one form or another. Also, issues such as gun control in the US does indirectly relate to us elsewhere; US culture permeates many of our countries be it TV, music etc.....
True, China does affect us all, and a host of other countries, but there are no Chinese forum members here to discuss the subject with.

I would guess that there are loads of issues regarding the UK that wind folk up, but that mainly only affects the UK members.

The US is what it is.......it has a high profile in the world so should expect people from elsewhere on the globe to have opinions. It\'s simply clear that in this community many issues that get raised here that involve the US often are not popular outside the US.

\"American Football\" for example!!

I understand this sentiment. Most of the discussion here is not what I would characterize as \"bashing\" but some is. What gets my goat is broad statements without evidence, when evidence for an opposing opinion is offered, the slant of the conversation just jumps to the next broad statement. I appreciate the civil debate offered here and I like to engage in discussions that are meaningful. I don\'t think P&R should be taboo here or anywhere, provided we all extend the same courtesies to each other.

 

[Talion]

I agree.......disagreements in topics like these, dont make me look at other board members in a negative light. We all got different opinions on things.

I can 100% disagree with someone, in topics like this and agree with them on the next.

These debates although annoy the shit out of some people are always good to rant about.

I look forward to the next.

 

[Jericho]

There\'s always going to be a few good people to harmlessly spar with, but generally speaking I get weary of these things because I\'ve been around enough forums over the years to see some good discussions go real bad in a hurry

 

[M. D. Van Norman]

Originally posted by vincegamer
You take government assistance every time you gas up your car or buy a hamburger.

Please explain. How much assistance does one get once he is done paying the government for the privilege of purchasing these resources?

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by M. D. Van Norman

Originally posted by vincegamer
You take government assistance every time you gas up your car or buy a hamburger.

Please explain. How much assistance does one get once he is done paying the government for the privilege of purchasing these resources?

Yes do. Since I pay at least 45 cents per gallon in State and federal taxes. The Gas companies drill the oil, or buy it, ship the oil, refine the oil into gasoline and at the end of the day make about 9-11 cents profit per gallon. This means the government, which does very little, gains more from gas than the people who do all the work to get it to us do. Not to mention sales tax and registration when I buy a vehicle, license fee, inspection stickers...
When I buy a hamburger? You mean how I have to pay more, because the government raises minimum wage, which was never intended to raise a family on, which thereby raises operating costs?

 

[matty1001]

If anybody doesn\'t believe there is a major gun problem in the UK, go and see Hot Fuzz lol

 

[supervike]

Originally posted by Orb
Maybe the \"bashing\" of the US comes from the fact that the US has influence over all of us, in one form or another. Also, issues such as gun control in the US does indirectly relate to us elsewhere; US culture permeates many of our countries be it TV, music etc.....
But you make that sound like American Culture is FORCED upon you...Haven\'t consumers a choice there? What makes McDonalds or Coca Cola want to do business there? Why does Hollywood want to send you movies? Granted the American way of life isn\'t the only way to live, but why is it OUR fault if people choose to live that way?

True, China does affect us all, and a host of other countries, but there are no Chinese forum members here to discuss the subject with.
so, If there were no American\'s on the forum, there would be no negative comments about America?

I would guess that there are loads of issues regarding the UK that wind folk up, but that mainly only affects the UK members.

The US is what it is.......it has a high profile in the world so should expect people from elsewhere on the globe to have opinions. It\'s simply clear that in this community many issues that get raised here that involve the US often are not popular outside the US.

\"American Football\" for example!!
Perfect example. Anytime American Football gets brought up (which is wildy popular in the US), invariably there is a comment regarding it as a farce, or not a true sport. There have been plenty of threads on Cricket or most recently \"Six Nations Away\" that are roundly ignored by members not interested. No Rugby bashing, just left alone. In fact even in making a post about the Superbowl, I obviously thought it important to almost apologize for bringing up the topic.

Superbowl thread.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=18656

1 post in before it is mocked (lovingly I might add by my good friend Anders

6 Nations thread.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=18647
Not a single comment from anyone blasting it. In fact, one comment taking a snarky shot at our Pad wearing compatriots. Thanks to my good friend Mike

My point being (there is one, I just made you wait for it) Bashing America is a popular sport on these forums, and I would just like to see just a bit of equity. America does deserve it\'s bashing on things, thats true, but does it deserve nothing but? Come on, just one thing. We\'ve got great roads here. ..our newspapers are made with recycled paper...come on throw me a freaking bone already.

Lastly...I don\'t mean to pick on just your statements Rob...Its just yours were the ones that caused me to think about this more. And also, much of this is really tongue in check, and for the sake of debate. Please take none of it personally. I honestly don\'t lose sleep over this, and its a good debate

 

[vincegamer]

I was referring to beef subsidies and import tariffs. The US government has this convoluted taxing system and this secretive snoopy society that enforces it. In the system there are all sorts of incentives and disincentives that affect the price you pay on specific items. Why do you think Europeans pay so much more for gasoline than Americans? etc.

 

[vincegamer]

Originally posted by supervike
My point being (there is one, I just made you wait for it) Bashing America is a popular sport on these forums, and I would just like to see just a bit of equity. America does deserve it\'s bashing on things, thats true, but does it deserve nothing but?

Interesting point here, though I don\'t know if it signifies anything: It\'s always non-americans bashing America. So, why aren\'t the Americans bashing things like the British medical system? Oh, wait, there was a thread where the UK members bashed it. Still, do you want us to start telling you what\'s bad about your countries?

 

[Wolf Fang]

M. D. Van Norman is that a No4 SMLE i see?

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by vincegamer

Originally posted by supervike
My point being (there is one, I just made you wait for it) Bashing America is a popular sport on these forums, and I would just like to see just a bit of equity. America does deserve it\'s bashing on things, thats true, but does it deserve nothing but?

Interesting point here, though I don\'t know if it signifies anything: It\'s always non-americans bashing America. So, why aren\'t the Americans bashing things like the British medical system? Oh, wait, there was a thread where the UK members bashed it. Still, do you want us to start telling you what\'s bad about your countries?

Another question:
How many of the more rabid bashers have actually been here?
And how much is media induced, or even trendy?

 

[Ritual]

@supervike
I ignore cricket threads because that sport is so bizarre and incomprehensable that I wouldn\'t even know how to make fun of it! lol

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by supervike

Originally posted by Orb
Maybe the \"bashing\" of the US comes from the fact that the US has influence over all of us, in one form or another. Also, issues such as gun control in the US does indirectly relate to us elsewhere; US culture permeates many of our countries be it TV, music etc.....
But you make that sound like American Culture is FORCED upon you...Haven\'t consumers a choice there? What makes McDonalds or Coca Cola want to do business there? Why does Hollywood want to send you movies? Granted the American way of life isn\'t the only way to live, but why is it OUR fault if people choose to live that way?

Now I have nothing against american culture, quit the opposit actually. And I do believe that it\'s their right to expend as much as they can in an open market environement. But you do have to admit that to some extent it is forced upon people.

The Us is the only market where cultural productions produce an instant benefit. Meaning that companies in the US don\'t need to sell abroad to make a profit. Which means that when they do sell abroad the can effectively lower their price far below any competiting product from other countries. Now if you\'re a TV chanel and you have the choice between a cheap TV series and an expensive one, the choice isn\'t going to be hard to make assuming that both series reach out to the same audience. In regular commerce this would be called dumping, and is in fact forbbiden by the WTO, but apparently there must be some loophole for the US to go through.

The other thing is, the US beehing the only superpower (Supremacy in Technologie, military, culture, and economie) it can do basically anything it wants, like forcing its cultural product on other countries. Or forcing other countries to open their border while the US remains extremly protectionists. For an example pertaining to culture, in the past the US has conditioned its help to other country by having them pass a law which makes it mendatory to show a certain percentage of american movies in that country.

So sayinf that america\'s cultural products aren\'t forced on us isn\'t exactly right. They are just using their status as dominant economy in a free market. Which is fine by me ( aaah the joys of Prison Break, Sopranos, Heroes, ect... )

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by frenchkid

Originally posted by supervike

Originally posted by Orb
Maybe the \"bashing\" of the US comes from the fact that the US has influence over all of us, in one form or another. Also, issues such as gun control in the US does indirectly relate to us elsewhere; US culture permeates many of our countries be it TV, music etc.....
But you make that sound like American Culture is FORCED upon you...Haven\'t consumers a choice there? What makes McDonalds or Coca Cola want to do business there? Why does Hollywood want to send you movies? Granted the American way of life isn\'t the only way to live, but why is it OUR fault if people choose to live that way?

Now I have nothing against american culture, quit the opposit actually. And I do believe that it\'s their right to expend as much as they can in an open market environement. But you do have to admit that to some extent it is forced upon people.

The Us is the only market where cultural productions produce an instant benefit. Meaning that companies in the US don\'t need to sell abroad to make a profit. Which means that when they do sell abroad the can effectively lower their price far below any competiting product from other countries. Now if you\'re a TV chanel and you have the choice between a cheap TV series and an expensive one, the choice isn\'t going to be hard to make assuming that both series reach out to the same audience. In regular commerce this would be called dumping, and is in fact forbbiden by the WTO, but apparently there must be some loophole for the US to go through.

The other thing is, the US beehing the only superpower (Supremacy in Technologie, military, culture, and economie) it can do basically anything it wants, like forcing its cultural product on other countries. Or forcing other countries to open their border while the US remains extremly protectionists. For an example pertaining to culture, in the past the US has conditioned its help to other country by having them pass a law which makes it mendatory to show a certain percentage of american movies in that country.

So sayinf that america\'s cultural products aren\'t forced on us isn\'t exactly right. They are just using their status as dominant economy in a free market. Which is fine by me ( aaah the joys of Prison Break, Sopranos, Heroes, ect... )

Forced or bought?
Follow the money, I guarantee that the same politicians that we \"forced\" our will upon have some incredible bank accounts. Telling their voters they\'re fighting against it, all the while accepting \"donations\" by the fistful from those same \"evil\" American corporations.
It\'s easier to buy someone than force them.
Every man has a price, politicians are usually on sale.
Your politicians can prevent these things. I wonder why they don\'t?
Who\'s really to blame, the nation that looks out for it\'s interests, or the politician who cares more about his interests than his nation\'s and is willing to sell it out?

 

[frenchkid]

Originally posted by Evil Dave
Your politicians can prevent these things. I wonder why they don\'t?

I\'ll agree with you on everything but that.
They can\'t do shit. Actually what would you want them to do ? Give out subventions to our cultural industries ? We\'d have WTO on our ass in minutes ( and probably the EU too). Higher taxes on US cultural products ? Yeah right, that\'s economical sucide for us, all the US have to do is close their market to our product and we\'re in the shit. Pass a law that imposes a certain amount of French cultural product in the entertainement industries ? Not in a Democracy, censoring had been out of fashion for some time.

So..... nothing. Welcome to a world where the market has more power then the state ( in entertainement anyway).

 

[Evil Dave]

Originally posted by frenchkid

Originally posted by Evil Dave
Your politicians can prevent these things. I wonder why they don\'t?

I\'ll agree with you on everything but that.
They can\'t do shit. Actually what would you want them to do ? Give out subventions to our cultural industries ? We\'d have WTO on our ass in minutes ( and probably the EU too). Higher taxes on US cultural products ? Yeah right, that\'s economical sucide for us, all the US have to do is close their market to our product and we\'re in the shit. Pass a law that imposes a certain amount of French cultural product in the entertainement industries ? Not in a Democracy, censoring had been out of fashion for some time.

So..... nothing. Welcome to a world where the market has more power then the state ( in entertainement anyway).

I never said it would be pretty, merely that they could prevent it. Every action has consequences.

If you can\'t make it cheaper, make it better. People will pay for quality.
It shouldn\'t be that hard, there hasn\'t been an original idea out of Hollywood for a decade.

 

[Avelorn]

It is the \"big brother\" phenomenon.. really.

@Evil Dave: well we get it all basically, because of all these economic factors. We aren\'t cultural nationalists that have an urgent need to shut out all what USA or what any other country produces. If I don\'t like an american show, I just don\'t watch it.

But the concequence is still there.. we are interested and dependent on you but much of the communication seems to go one way... Now let\'s see. on channel 3 it was \"Oprah Winfrey\", now it\'s \"missing.\" on 4 \"Reba\" soon starts. on channel 4+ It\'s Glamour, on channel 5 it\'s Friends, channel 6 it\'s \"Married with children\" On all 6 movie channels right now there are 6 American movies playing etc. If it\'s not american series it\'s either brittish or australian (re-runs of the flying doctors ). Only SVT the swedish public service seems to be showing swedish programs atm. When you get a relation to something you discuss it.

And it\'s far more than culture. Look at social science for example (what I do hence the example). Almost all large and highstatus peer-reviewed journals are produced in America and is often directly linked to Stanford or another institution. We read everything you produce... even if it\'s not what we are interested in here in Europe. Strange fact.. or is it really that strange? Why do you think that is?

The logical fallacy is just because we need parts of something as a customer, worker or scientist or whatever doesn\'t mean that we need or want it all, and all concequences of our choices. But there is hardly a way of filtering, everything is linked together. I hate it for example when politicians say \"We got a clear mandate for our [insert]policy\" When people only voted for maybe one or two aspects, like the ability to solve unemployment. It is the same with USA.. because you have made some choices as a nation you get both benefits and a backside, and everything is linked together.

I also think that there is some kind of USA-centering thing going on, both from americans and from us dicussing topics like this. Making general problems and discussions, american problems and discussions. It\'s not only in america people are interested in guns for example , and the problem with guncontrol is a problem open for discussion everywhere. It\'s just that the discussion focuses on USA in news, american documentaries, american books, american studies and so on.. and as we\'ve already pointed out - We get a lot of those

@supervike: I\'ll try to start more positive threads discussing america. I\'m all for balance!

 

[Highbulp Billy]

@ Supervike - do not try to watch a copy of this week\'s Top Gear!!! Not exactly good marketing for America.

However, a list of things I like about America...

- big food
- quality new TV shows especially sitcoms (better than crappy UK repeats all the time)
- movies that don\'t have to have the same romcom plot (UK please learn) although you do seem to have adopted Hugh Grant so be careful
- basketball (fat moving sport with high scores - no 0-0 draws after 90 minutes of nothingness)
- Tom Peters (made studying business and management actually interesting and fun)
- lots of other things but I\'ll save those for later if they\'re needed

 

[Ritual]

Originally posted by Avelorn
It is the \"big brother\" phenomenon.. really.

@Evil Dave: well we get it all basically, because of all these economic factors. We aren\'t cultural nationalists that have an urgent need to shut out all what USA or what any other country produces. If I don\'t like an american show, I just don\'t watch it.

But the concequence is still there.. we are interested and dependent on you but much of the communication seems to go one way... Now let\'s see. on channel 3 it was \"Oprah Winfrey\", now it\'s \"missing.\" on 4 \"Reba\" soon starts. on channel 4+ It\'s Glamour, on channel 5 it\'s Friends, channel 6 it\'s \"Married with children\" On all 6 movie channels right now there are 6 American movies playing etc. If it\'s not american series it\'s either brittish or australian (re-runs of the flying doctors ). Only SVT the swedish public service seems to be showing swedish programs atm. When you get a relation to something you discuss it.

Yes, while in theory the consumer infulences the market through his/her choices in a market economy it often doesn\'t work that way in real life. The TV channels show American shows because a) they\'re fairly cheap and b) many people (but not ALL) want to see them. Thus, if you\'re one of the people who wants to see something else you get no choice, basically, because the choice has allready been made by the TV stations. I can\'t chose to watch a Spanish TV show, because there are no channels airing them! The choice of the consumers constantly becomes more and more limited and is governed more and more about the will of the majority and what\'s most popular.

For instance, 15 years ago, when I started getting into music I could go into a big record store and find racks upon racks filled with different records. Some by big artists and some by small artists. Now, if I go into a big record store I find racks upon racks filled with the 20 currently top selling records. They have 100s of each record, but if I want something else it\'s difficult to find.

This effect causes American TV, American music, American films etc. to dominate the market here, and I as a consumer can often not chose anything else. Not in an easy way, at least, and therfore most people succumb and chose what everyone else is chosing. Now, I\'m not saying that this is something you actively force upon us or anything and I\'m not even saying it\'s a bad thing alltogether, but the influence is there.

 

[fortunesfool]

Originally posted by matty1001
If anybody doesn\'t believe there is a major gun problem in the UK, go and see Hot Fuzz lol

Funny but also a little true.

I\'ll start off by saying that I\'m an american who\'s been living over here in the UK for 5 years.

During those 5 years I have seen more assaults than I did in 25 years of living in the States. I\'ve had people offer to sell me a guns. It\'s not like I lived in Nottingham (the gun capital of the UK) either. I lived in Milton Keynes and Dundee, neither of them a hot bed of crime. Nor am I a shady character as I\'m a doctor (osteopath).

Do I miss guns while living over here? To be honest no. I do feel far more unsafe over here compared to the States.

I personally have never liked guns and this is the main reason behind not missing them. The last time I went to back to the States, I did however make certain to pack my throwing axe and knife collection (which was inspected by US and UK airport officials because they thought that they were cool) as these are weapons that I feel far more proficient with.

These objects don\'t make me feel anymore safe. But.... Heaven forbid anyone ever tried to break into my home and place my wife and daughters lives in danger. They allow me to protect my family in a country that I find to be unsafe.

I must say that I find Evil Dave\'s arguments refreshing and share much in common with his viewpoints. Although I don\'t enjoy guns, I believe that any RESPONSIBLE individual should have the option to use them.

me

p.s. If anyone wants to start a UK bashing thread, I\'m willing to comment.