Golden Daemon Fraud

rargh

New member
Originally posted by pitynoman
As far as mr.Kelso is concerned(if he is in fact guilty...how reliable is that info)

There is no question that it is true.

The figure concerned was in fact converted by Clouseau and a scratch-built Dark Angel Helmet placed in one hand. The model also had intricate runes painted all over it (freehand). Clouseau\'s winner was pictured in the Australian White Dwarf which indeed dates the figure and proves his ownership at that time. Comparing that picture with the image that GW US provided on their web site will make it clear.

When you compare the two there is no doubt that the two figures are indeed the same one. Ironically, Mr Kelso couldn\'t be faulted for not having done the work himself simce it isn\'t explicitly stated in the GD rules. He was caught out because there IS a clasue prohibiting entering any model that has won previously...

R
 
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DragonDawn

Guest
Originally posted by pitynoman
As far as mr.Kelso is concerned(if he is in fact guilty...how reliable is that info)

It\'s 100% reliable - straight from the horse\'s (GW\'s) mouth. I would never make something like that up.
 

Chrispy

Active member
Okay, Lemme just clear things up as I seem to be the trouble maker here: I only vaguely heard something about Hardy through someone else who heard it from someone else. I only hinted at it because, given half of the story, it seemed the only shady thing at the GD\'s.. I didn\'t say he stole anything outright and I\'m pleased to hear he also worked on it some more. I would also like to say his work is very good and I am sorry I have offended him or any of his friends and fans. Just goes to show what gossip can do... now the Hardy conversation is over on this thread! Completed! Done! Finalized! Achieved! Fini! Ex post facto! Coitus Interruptus!! :p
 
M

mini-goddess

Guest
To help clear matters up a bit as much as I can and squelch any rumors that needn\'t see the light of day in our hobby...Mr. Kelso was disqualified from the GenCon competition this year due to his entries having been painted by others and bought off eBay by him. Our rules were clear on this subject--Figures must be entered by the painter. He returned the cash prizes with apologies, for which I am thankful. GW rules were not as clear, and so legal hassles arise. They may not be able to show the perpetrators or make names public to avoid legal hassles.

But really...the main point is it\'s a horrible thing to do to those painters that worked their eyes bloodshot to finish their entries. There is no way to go back and award others who were more deserving.

This will change in 2003. Fraud will NOT be tolerated by me or anyone associated with these competitions. Rules changes, new practices, and the great world-wide community of painters, should help put a stop to this sort of thing.

Okay, I\'ll stop ranting now....


the mini-goddess
 

Caruthias

New member
Which V Hardy model was the one in question?

I know that he had help from Tim Lison on his Bloodthirster, but that\'s all I heard.

Personally, I think you should be allowed to enter pre converted mini\'s at the GD\'s, as long as you change them at least a bit in terms of converting, and mention the person who helped you with it, unless he or she specifically asked you not to.
 

Jericho

Consummate Brushlicker
It was his Chaos Lord with Terminator armor, a lightning claw, some funky meltagun, and a huge banner. Lots of leering daemon faces painted freehand in there too.
 

snowdog

New member
seems people go to all lengths to win, but hey, this is new?!?! hardly. in local RTT\'s you\'ll see this all the time. guy who wins best paint, never laid a glove on them. i don\'t think they should be knocked out, just reduced score!
 

Chrispy

Active member
Though I\'m not 100% familiar with the judging, it seems that if the judges \"score\" them numerically like the system here, then the trophy would be taken away anyways.. In that ways it would be like the olympics, where scores that are a fraction apart are the top scores, so then by reducing someone\'s score, you\'re effecivly elevating someone elses, thus giving them the award. This would kinda be like the skating competion in 2002 winter where the judge\'s score was changed and then another team wone.

However, I beileve the judges do not try and score by numbers, but that they try to simply look for the best. That\'s why they have the elimination rounds, so that the lesser quality minis are picked out...

But there is no question that his trophy should be taken. He broke the rules and was intent on breaking the rules. I mean.. it\'s not like you can say \"Oops, I entered someone else\'s mini without their knowledge by mistake!\"

And so we will have to wait and see how this effects scoring and entering in the future. I for one would like it if they made the painters submit a \"before\" picture or even an in-progress shot like Chick Challenge did. This assured that no one would use someone else\'s mini.
 

nadinbrzezinski

New member
But you see

That means that they have to change some of their own practices. They encourage this. I know people who have gone to Games Day Seatle who pay somebody else to paint their army, since they cannot paint to save their lives, and even gloat about it in front of judges.

Now on another thread people are complainging about the price increase. The painted armies that people are ahem, encouraged, heck required to play with, in a Rogue Trader or any other ofifical event, are part of that marketing scheme. You see well painted armies, whether you painted it or somebody else did, really does not matter since the visual apeal is there. Even not that well painted armies, after all the Space Marine schemes are very easy to do, and achieve a four foot standard.

Yesterday we were futzing with Battlefleet Gothic (Epic in Space, many hated epic but they love gothic, I have found a new good distraction game). Now netiher myself or my husband play with unpainted models. When I do demos I never (well with one excpetion teach but it was either running the demo with a half painted army, since I lost the models 72 hours before, or cancelling, the lesser of the two evils was to run it) run a demo with unpainted models. Why? I know that it sells... the visual apeal sells. And the kid watching us manouver well painted Gothic ships around, and later on looking at the box proved it. He was in the store and probably went, those look awesome. Now if he had asked I would have told him that no, they do not come painted but I will gladly teach him how to. Now we were not doing a demo... what we were doing was figuring the rules out, but since we were doing this with painted models, the visual apeal was there, and atracted this young lad\'s attention.

It is the same way when we play CAV, or we used to play BattleTech or we play 40K, or Heavy Gear. Since all units are painted and we use fairly good looking terrain, guess what, the kids want to play.

Now going to the initial, this push for having the best painted army in your area, and we will give you national and international recognition... forces some people\'s hands. Moreover, and it is well known, the GD used to be, and still is t a point a job interview. That is how they have found some of the best painters for the \'eavy Metal team (tm).

Now forcing people to take photos of the before, middle and after model does not quite prevent this. Let me play devil\'s advocate and proceed to get some holes in there.

Lets just say, not that I ever would do it, the closest I have entered is the local store and I know the contest is rigged for other reasons, enter a GT. (unless they move where I can travel feasibly). I can\'t paint right, lets assume that. But I really want that sword or that axe, really want it. I contract a kick ass painter that I know that does not aspire to show his or her work beyond a very limted local area.. I get him the model, he does the conversion... I take photo. the before... then as he gets mid way through the work, I take another photo... and finally I take the final photo. Now I really want this, and I have met all requirements right? Ok... you just saw how I beat the system.

A far better method, which is the way my original example was caught, was when the judges asked him... before he gloated, how he did the kick ass base those Orks were mounted on. He could not answer, since he had no idea.

Now for the record this person has not been banned from any GT held by GW, and in fact runs at his store, Rogue Traders. Oh and I cuold not nor would ever win a painting contest at his store either, since I\'m a woman... but that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Nadin
 

Chrispy

Active member
Who the hell said anyhting about the GT\'s? Even if someone else did paint and convert for someone else, all the winners have something special that reflects the original person\'s imagination. Using someone else\'s mini that they planned and thought up it totally different.

Also, the topic here is the Golden Daemon awards and not CAV or trying to sell pre painted minis.

Offically, they can\'t do anything, but if word gets around about him, then people won\'t want his business.. Aforestated, if anyone ever did something like that with my work, the least I would do is never allow him to buy my work again.

As for gender at the GD\'s.. frankly I don\'t care, if you paint great, then I respect your abilities regardless.. In the last competitions females have been winning succesfully not based on their gender but their skills.
 

nadinbrzezinski

New member
I post mostly CAV

But you are assuming that I only paint CAVs... Chrispy would you like to see my I-guard, or rather my Vampire Counts...

You are assuming that I do not paint any GW. For the record, my husband has won best painted army at a Rogue Trader, twice at two different venues. You also missed the Battle Fleet Gothic reference.

That said, you tried to ignore the point of the post, which is for the award to not enourage some of the practices I have seen, many a practice by the company has to change. Yeah, so you will not talk to the guy... ok, that is nice... you can bet that he will still be able to sell his work, or go, see I won a GD sword.

Now I saw Hardy\'s work and as far as I am concerned, whether he did the conversion or not, it is about painting, not converting, and he did a kick ass job and DESERVES the sword.

Now to the gender, you have not encountred it, but I have encountered it enough times to know that gender is both an asset and a problem in this hobby. Heck, even company presidents are ignored by some neaderthals at Cons because they are women.

Now I have many males telling me that this is not the case and this is my imagination. I am the one who faces this every so often. For the record, there is a local store that I no longer patronize because of their chauvinistic attitudes... and it is so bad, that when we first went to their games day on Monday night, when we left, I told my husband... if it wasn\'t because I WORK in this industry, my children would never game (or for that matter paint models).

In fact when we have kids and it is time for them to go to Cons, boy they will be supervised to make sure that they do not meet some of these Neaderthals.

Now back to this... as I said, for some of the cheating or perceived cheating to go away, some of GWs practices regarding the Grand Tournaments, all the way to Rogue Traders, have to change. That said, in a cost \\ benefit analysis I\'d rather have some cheating or perceived cheating, and very well painted armies... the marketing benefit of having those armies out there, WHERE PEOPLE CAN SEE THEM far surpases the risks that I will have some cheaters. After all, the system is changed, human nature being what it is, they will find a way to cheat.

nadin
 

Chrispy

Active member
I never said you didn\'t paint GW, in fact I pretty much assumed you did. I just thought CAV was a little off topic..

As I said before Hardy Conversation: OVER!!! This is not him were talking about were speaking of the bastard that used an Austrailian GD winner to get a trophy in America. The rules maybe gray on who did the work but they are in black and white that say that no previous winners may be used.

I also see how I cannot relate to the gender issue for the simple reason I never entered any contests around here. I would probably win, but I don\'t know of any tournaments in town. But what I have seen of other\'s painting looks like it was painted using a 3 inch brush with house latex paints..
 

nadinbrzezinski

New member
And again

It comes down to procedures by GW... and how they have to change in order for them to prevent this.

There are several things they can do right off the bat, and all of them are fairly easy to circumvent if you want it bad enough.

Also as I said, the guy has done something unethical. He posts a model for sale at E-Bay, do you honestly believe that this will affect his chance to sell it? Hardly, and that is my point. Now he might not be able to participate in any GT painting contest again... ok, whatever... he has his trophy and if you think he will not use it to ahem, get his wares marketed I have a bridge to sell you.

I might add, believe it or not the memory in this industry is fairly short, so in five years nobody that cares will remember.

Am I condoning cheating? Hardly, there are wares from one particular company that I do not touch because in my opinion they are less than honest, and this is not GW we are talking about. That said, chances are that even if I tell the story I will not be able to influence your buying or selling habbits... human nature being what it is, as long as you get what you want, or highly desire... why care? Sadly that is the way things are... so he gets snubbed by the top painters in this hobby. Hell he can even get slandered (from his PoV) or worst on line by the top painters. From personal experience if he is willing to cheat once, he will do it twice and he will get away with it. This is a sad comment about human nature, not this guy in particular.

So my advice, spend your time in something you can actually influence.

Nadin
 

Chrispy

Active member
HE is not the one selling, obviously if he didn\'t enter his own mini then the chance of him actually offering a painted mini up to quality is slim.

As mentioned before we already know he does this because of another convention so of course he\'s going to do this again. If it\'s one thing my dad taught me it\'s basically that stupid people never learn... But I believe that we\'ve figured out what we need to know on the forum... Someone wanted to know the person who pawned off another model as his own and now they know.
 

snowdog

New member
BlackWurm and i did Space Wolves for an e-bay friend. the eb-bay buddy wins Best Paint. i felt pretty trashed thinking our stuff won, he got credit. he paid for it though so i guess i can\'t \"holler\". i can understand jen\'s \" agreement \" on her mini\'s on e-bay. another Wolves army we did for a friend in Tennesee won BP, he admitt\'s he didn\'t paint it, they took him out!! ah well, to be the small people!!! ;)
 

nadinbrzezinski

New member
Not really Chrispy

I can paint to a good army standard ok... lets assume for a second that this guy can as well... and I am willing to bet he can.

Now he can sell his wares at E-Bay and even use the... Golden Demon Award moniker on it and charge a tad more. Most folks out there are impressed by this and are not privy to this conversation.. not because we are having it away from a public space, this is very public, but how many people are reading this? Heck, how many forum members are reading this?

As I said... what he did is highly unethical, and there are things that GW can do about it... but he has gotten away with murder.

Now as to people entering stuff that they did not paint into contests, happens all the time... I have seen it more often than I care to think. This is why I no longer take much of what goes on in this hobby that seriously. It is part of the poltiics that goes on in it. Is this unfortunate? Absolutely, but if you sell a mini on E-Bay and it is very good, chances are at least some of your buyers will \"cheat the system.\"

Nadin
 

hawkwood

New member
its actualy this element that scares me the most because i do paint to a reasonable standard though i am no GD winner ( dont have the conversion skills for a start) and the idea that some guy who paints no beter than me and like me sells his skills (i have been painting full time for 9 years) that he can put out in his advertising literature that he is a golden deamon winner (because he cheated) scares the hell out of me because that will mean that 9 people out of 10 will assume he is a better painter than me when in fact the reverse may well be true. Furthermore if at some point i should legitimately win a GD the afore mentioned cheating ^%*&$ will have lessoned the importance of any genuine claimes because new customers just wont know who to trust.
nadin i am disgusted but i have to say not truly suprised that you have encounterd any sort of sexism within the industry and i trust you realize that it is not representitive of most of us

hawkwood
 

nadinbrzezinski

New member
Oh I share your feelings

It is disgusting that some people feel they need to cheat to win... but unfortunately that is human nature.

Now to the sexism... well lets put it this way... I vote with my wallet when stores are involved, and at Cons I have learned to just chuckle and move on.

It does make demoing product hard at times, and my husband has had the need to disapear from time to time. After all he is the one who knows this product... never mind my name is in some product... but hey, part of the game I guess.

Now most folks out there are in games for the right reason. Those are to have a good time together with friends. There are some out there... (insert game here) that take their preferred habit a tad too seriously or honestly believe that women do not belong. Those are the ones who sometimes ruin it for the rest of us.

Nadin
 

snowdog

New member
Golden Daemon Stuff

not to mention all the pro painters on e-bay too, everyone\'s won the sword lol.
so be it!
 
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