Golden Daemon Fraud

[Davida G.]

Thoughts from a Newbie...

Up until recently I worked for GW, and had the chance to work the past two years at the Golden Daemon tables at GD Baltimore. And wile the contest may be less than perfect, I had a blast working it. So many people coming up with their figures that they have put so much work into, so proud of what they have done. I had the chance to meet and talk to some of the most amazingly nice people, and got to see some paint work that just blew my mind. I have been painting for about 4 years, but I am no where near the caliber of most of the people who enter the Golden Daemon. But I love the hobby. So I had a wonderful time talking to the artists talking technique, goobing and just having a grand time.

And it saddens me to hear that someone was willing to cheat and cheapen the victory. And take the chance away from someone who worked his bum off on a figure. The concept of someone taking a figure they didn\'t paint and entering it into a contest is just disgusting to me. And I just can\'t understand why someone would want too. Where is the thrill of victory when you had nothing to do with the figure that won? Everyone from older veterans of the painting circuit to new blood entering for the first time, should be able to enter a painting contest with the knowledge that they are all equals on the table.

::end rant::

Davida G.

P.s. I also had a chance to talk to Jason Richards at GD 2001 and a little at 2002. If you happen to be reading this, thanks for your kindness and encouragement to a novice painter.

 

[pitynoman]

\"Someone wanted to know the person who pawned off another model as his own and now they know. \"

Yes,thank you.My has this gotten off topic and long-winded.My curioucity thus satisfied and thoroughly disgusted with the human race,it would be interesting to hear from someone who was at one of the aforementioned events and can give a first hand account of the lies,the ceremony and etc.

 

[SaxonAngel]

Originally posted by nadinbrzezinski
It is disgusting that some people feel they need to cheat to win... but unfortunately that is human nature.

Now to the sexism... well lets put it this way... I vote with my wallet when stores are involved, and at Cons I have learned to just chuckle and move on.

There are some out there... (insert game here) that take their preferred habit a tad too seriously or honestly believe that women do not belong. Those are the ones who sometimes ruin it for the rest of us.

The cheating thing is scary. While I have not won a GD yet (no money/time to fly there) I have won and placed in many competitions. I feel I am an adequate painter with or without a GD. People still buy my stuff on eBay so it can\'t be that significant.
But I would be HORRIFIED if someone bought something from me and claimed it as their own. I would not sell to anybody would had been accused of doing this.
I don\'t think it will be forgotten as this sort of thing happens so infrequently. For example White dwarf never published the name of the guy. But now ANYBODY who reads this thread will know his name, so even if he tries (yet again) to pull this stunt. He will be caught. People are far too well informed these days. GD winners are posted all over the internet, someone will catch it.

But I think I will follow Jen Haley\'s lead and put the obligation on my customers to not claim my works their own for just the above reasons. Hopefully this will bring awareness to the subject and prevent a few more frauds.

As for the sexism thing. I have encountered it LOTS. Whenever my husband and I go to a games store/ show, I am treated as the spouse who\'s just along for the ride and must be bored out her skull.
Sexism is alive and well at shows and retailers. The key is to brush it and the detractor off and get on with it. These guy are very insecure about themselves and women, and live in ignorance.

Peace,
Angela ( SaxonAngel)

 

[Delos]

another fraud

another one, in the tilean GD, the 1st on 40K vehicles entry and de 2nd in duel entry were finalist in Spanish GD.

 

[Baron Karza]

In Eric Kelso\'s defense he never quite claimed...

that the work was his. What he said was that the Asurman statue was broken during shipping from Australia and he had to reassemble it and then repaint about 90% of it...
lollollollollollollollollollollollollollol

The funny thing for me is that he used the exact same story at GenCon.

This guy is just a jackass, pure and simple.
He deserves every bit of flak that he gets, IMHO.

These guy are very insecure about themselves and women, and live in ignorance.

Well, DUH! they\'re gamers!!!

Oh yeah, screw Vic Hardy too. Drama Queen.

Baron Karza

 

[SaxonAngel]

Oh Yeah

I forgot that every time I drop or break a mini that I have to repaint 90% of it too!!
lol
Wow no wonder I never get any new minis done, I\'m still stuck repainting my first two! yeah Whatever...

Lets face it. Criminals are STUPID! And they\'re are usually too stupid to realize that most people are actually smarter than they are! So guys like this are going to do it again, and again, and again. Much to our disgust.:flame::flame:

 

[nadine]

Oh yeah, screw Vic Hardy too. Drama Queen.

Baron Karza

I never thought I would see the term \'drama queen\' applied to a gamer guy type. Thanks for the giggle!

 

[Zilo]

In the past 3 years when I was more actively painting , I did alot of work for paying hobbyists . I even made a full time job out of it for 2 years and supported my self quite comfortably. I of course understand that not everyone has the time to paint their armies the way they want them to be represented . So thats where I came in.

I wouldnt ever look down on someone either for paying another person to \'bring their figures to life\'. In fact I like the idea of peices of work being spread around. They can influence others to try harder and Im most certain they do. To see a peice painted by a better painter in person works wonders for creativity and motive. I say this from experience because when I first started I sucked :flame: .. I sucked so bad it made me angry. I figured mostly all the pics in white dwarfs and in other magazines were not how they seemed, probably worse in person. But that all changed when I saw a really good painter\'s work in person.

From that day on I knew people worked hard to achieve what they wanted and that its no easy task. Thats how our hobbyist painting scene has been evolutionised. Seeing more techniques, shareing secrets , showing new and cunning ways to represent all aspects of painting. Take a look at an old white dwarf with GD coverage, and then take a look at a newer one. Everything has changed, and thats because the hobbyist community has grown and been exposed to so many artists. Knowledge is power and it really makes me wonder where the par is going to be set in another 5 years.

I may get trashed for this but I have painted figures for people who have used my work to enter and successfuly win competitions . Ive even seen some of my work posted here at CMoN, and no, its not under my handle either! In all honesty I have no regrets ever for painting a figure for someone else for their own purpose. The fact remains that Im happy with my art and apparantly others were also , which is a huge plus. The credit does not matter to me because I already have what matters to me. Thats the talent to achieve what I aspire to do, and thats to paint a figure to my own liking.

Now with this GD fraud bit, as I understand someone used a figure that won at another GD. The only thing I see as wrong here is that this person entered it and this said peice won when it already had won an award , which is against the rules. Aside that I see nothing wrong. GD to me is to judge a figure and not a persons morales. Im not condoning to this persons morales but I wont attack them either. If their conscience lets them live with it then thats fine by me. But they really are missing out on a great hobbyist community and the overall spirit of the hobby will always be dampened for them.

So live and let live, paint and be happy, its all the same in the end!

 

[Dragon Snack]

Eric Kelso?

Is that even a REAL name? Anyone ever seen \"That 70s Show\"?

Not saying it couldn\'t be his name, but I\'m dubious. Anyone know for sure?

 

[raginggaijin]

Cheatin\' is as cheatin\' does...

Originally posted by borg
Victor\'s name shouldn\'t even be mentioned in this thread! Victor is a true champion! It has to suck to have to write an open letter to defend yourself... Bases too big... you didn\'t sculpt it... WHATEVER, can we be more jaded here! To me, that is a bunch of bull!Besides we are comparing oranges to apples here. Buying a ready painted mini and entering into a competition is rather different than buying an unpainted piece and then spending another 60+ hours in additional conversion before the paintjob. If I can paint half as good as Victor, I would sell my soul! \'nuff said.

Cheating is cheating. Doesn\'t matter who did it or if they are considered a champion or not.

Anything said by someone who bends the rules to suit their purpose is IMO suspect. Especially when I can go back and look at prior conversions and see a stark difference. So then how are we to know that 60+ hours of work went into the piece? Any WIP shots? (Victor is a damn good painter. His painting ability has gotten him many Runner Ups prior to his Bloodthirster.) I think Victor realized his conversion abilities were one weakness that was holding him back from the win, and he took care of it.

IMO having someone else convert or paint your entry is the same as taking steroids in athletic sports; it gives you an edge in competition. So was it an open letter defending himself or an open letter covering his ass?

I don\'t dislike Victor as he was a gentleman during the competition. I just have trouble with his ethics.

Mini-painters who enter in the Golden Demons have raised spoken their discontent over entering miniatures that are not completely their own work. Half of the competition is catching the judge\'s eye and conversions are a major way of doing this. We all know the rules but we all don\'t follow them.

As far as Eric Kelso goes, he was just a lazy cheater that got caught. He got what he deserved.

Hopefully the next year of Golden Demon competitions will get rid of these loopholes and make it a true competitors arena. Not one you can buy your way into.

As far as selling your soul, Borg, there are plenty of Golden Demon winners that are whoring out their talent in painting seminars and one-on-ones.

I think Nine Inch Nails got it right. Question is: Is it worth it?

CJ Cummings
aka The Raging Gaijin
www.raginggaijin.com

 

[raginggaijin]

Originally posted by nadinbrzezinski
Also as I said, the guy has done something unethical. He posts a model for sale at E-Bay, do you honestly believe that this will affect his chance to sell it? Hardly, and that is my point. Now he might not be able to participate in any GT painting contest again... ok, whatever... he has his trophy and if you think he will not use it to ahem, get his wares marketed I have a bridge to sell you.

I might add, believe it or not the memory in this industry is fairly short, so in five years nobody that cares will remember.

Am I condoning cheating? Hardly, there are wares from one particular company that I do not touch because in my opinion they are less than honest, and this is not GW we are talking about. That said, chances are that even if I tell the story I will not be able to influence your buying or selling habbits... human nature being what it is, as long as you get what you want, or highly desire... why care? Sadly that is the way things are... so he gets snubbed by the top painters in this hobby. Hell he can even get slandered (from his PoV) or worst on line by the top painters. From personal experience if he is willing to cheat once, he will do it twice and he will get away with it. This is a sad comment about human nature, not this guy in particular.

So my advice, spend your time in something you can actually influence.

Nadin

Kick Ass points, Nadin. I totally agree with the point on human nature and your advice. (Though I can\'t make [delete] on Ebay, and I pimp my wins like a mother[delete]!)

The Raging Gaijin
www.raginggaijin.com

 

[Shroud]

Agree Ragin

\"Mini-painters who enter in the Golden Demons have raised spoken their discontent over entering miniatures that are not completely their own work. Half of the competition is catching the judge\'s eye and conversions are a major way of doing this. We all know the rules but we all don\'t follow them.
\"

Agree completely. I really, really like Victor\'s Bloodthirster and even feature it on my \"Must See\" page on my website.

But....


IMO - the piece you enter in the GD competition should be 100% done by you from the moment you crack open the blister pack to the moment you spray on the matte finish. Period. Anything else doesn\'t sit terribly well.

So I have WIP shots of most of my conversions so far for this years Demons

Jarrett Lee

 

[SaxonAngel]

What no spoiler pics Jarrett?

You\'ll show \'em what them Western Canadians can do! I bet you\'ll come away with the slayer sword/axe/underpants, whatever.

Peace:innocent:

 

[Shroud]

\"I bet you\'ll come away with the slayer sword/axe/underpants, whatever.
\"
You are way too kind - I\'m very flattered. I\'m going to do my BEST but I have no illusions of taking the \"weapon\". Vic, Jen, Bobby are all in a league of their own and it will likely go to someone of their caliber. But I\'ll sure try!

Trust me it\'s tempting to post pics cuz I love sharing my work. Gonna be hard to keep it to myself for this long!

 

[raginggaijin]

IMO - the piece you enter in the GD competition should be 100% done by you from the moment you crack open the blister pack to the moment you spray on the matte finish. Period. Anything else doesn\'t sit terribly well.

Anything else IMO is cheating.

I too keep WIP shots of my work. *grin*

The Raging Gaijin
www.raginggaijin.com

 

[ZaPhOd]

Darned rights

You bet! I agree Rage. Anything less than your own work does not deserve the Big Prize! One of these years, I may have a go, and it will be all my mojo!

 

[snowdog]

Golden Daemon fraud

so what is it then?!?! gd winners can\'t do crud on e-bay. maybe it\'s e-bay fraud. one e-bay painter ( not on cmon ) always gets unreal prices for his stuff. i\'ve been watching this individual for a year plus. i do table top stuff and haven\'t been able to do anything since this guy shows.

it\'s always the same guys bidding and winning his stuff. seems like insider trading if you will.
???
g

 

[DragonDawn]

Nah - Ebay is a tricky beast. It\'s more about knowing the system and what to do and what not to do than what awards you have won/not won. I do agree that being a GD winner or whatever *can* help your auctions - if the pics are crap or the description sucks it\'s not gonna do well no matter what else you do. You have to cater to what people want and, sorry to say, suck up in your description a bit. And that requires doing a little research and study on what people are looking for. I\'ve sold squads that have taken me less than 8 hours to paint for over $200 and single minis that have taken me 8 hours a piece have horribly flopped. Not every one is going to be a breadwinner I guess that side of selling models comes from my years of working in the internet industry for years.

There a select few people that regularly do $150-$300 (Jen, Anne, and Jason are about all I can think of) - but I think that has less to do with their awards and more to do with the consistent high quality of their work. Anne made a name for herself on ebay way before she won any GDs. And then there are the workhorses like Darrin (Dman) and Jeff Hiatt that can pump out tons of great quality stuff every week, but have never won any demons (as far as I know).

I guess my take on the whole thing is if you think that winning a GD is suddenly going to make your auctions go way up in price without the work and effort involved - you are very mistaken. If you are looking to make a living in this business, it\'s hard work....and no matter how good you are - you aren\'t going to get rich doing it. You have to really love painting - and that\'s what makes me more upset about this situation more than anything else. Myself and everyone here puts their blood, sweat and tears into their minis, whether or not they are selling them or reguardless of painting level. Anyone who takes a shortcut by having another person paint something and claiming it as their own spits on what everyone else loves to do and demeans it. I know the rules might be unclear or foggy or whatever, but come on - there isn\'t one person here that can tell me that that is a good or right thing to do.

Anyways - I\'m rambling - so it\'s time to end my little rant

 

[snowdog]

E-bay GD Stuff

i can\'t agree with you dd. trends, knowing what people like!?! i\'ve been around the hobby since rt days. my by rating is over 400 i think i can hang pretty well ;}
i know people who\'ve bought from names you\'ve mentioned and were not as pleased once in hand. you\'ll not change my mind that some e-bay folks have \"helpers\" out there.
g

 

[Shroud]

Guess we won\'t change your mind, although I totally disagree that there is shill bidding going on if that\'s what you mean.