Golden Daemon Fraud

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DragonDawn

Guest
Yeah - knowing what people like. There are trends in painting just like anything else (Aherm...NMM ;) ;) ). And alot more people collect marines than say SOB. You can take 2 things equally well painted for an army no one collects and something for the most popular army out there. I\'ll give you one guess as to which one is going to be worth more at the end of the auction ;)

I wasn\'t trying to insinuate that you didn\'t know what you were talking about either. Just making some observations. I\'ve been doing ebay stuff for a loooong time (not just minis) - just thought I would put in my 2 cents.

As far as \"shill\" bidders - believe it or not, ebay has flags that go up if someone is selling to the same person all the time. If someone tries to pull that kinda stuff, they DO take a close look at it to see if something fishy is going on. There have been a lot of people that have been banned from ebay for doing things like that - I don\'t know about for minis on that one, but it has happened.
 
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SaxonAngel

nada
Shill bidding is almost nonexistant on eBay now. A couple of years ago they cracked down. Some people with feedbacks in the thousands were caught and banned. While I\'m sure there is still the odd case out there, any definite pattern of bidding will alert their \"robots.\" And in case you are wondering they warned us all they were about to crack down. Do it enough and you WILL get nailed.
I have 800+feedbacks on eBay and my account dates back to 1997. I have seen eBay evolve from 15 pages of listings (total!) to the behemoth it is today. They do a VERY good job of running the...ahem...empire.

Just my two and half cents Canadian.;)
 
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snowdog

New member
GD/ E-bay thing

soryy guys, not menat for the feedback aspect, they did stop the leave anyone feedback anytime quite awhile back.
the shill bids........hmmn, still can\'t agree. i recently did buy ( not sell ) some oop daemonette\'s. bought two squads from one user. they both ended at the same price of $26. not so unusual excpet a thrid squad which ended the same night ( different seller ) ended at $13.
it\'s stuff like this that makes me feel some hokey pokey still goes on!
no offense taken dd, as were all saying, just my side of the coin!
my painting partner and i will have some ne w40k stuff this weekend, i\'ll let you guys have a peek for the needed helpers!
greg
:innocent:
 
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pitynoman

Member
Originally posted by SnowDog

i can\'t agree with you dd. trends, knowing what people like!?! i\'ve been around the hobby since rt days. my by rating is over 400 i think i can hang pretty well ;}
i know people who\'ve bought from names you\'ve mentioned and were not as pleased once in hand. you\'ll not change my mind that some e-bay folks have \"helpers\" out there.
g
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That\'s right knowing what people like while not brain-surgery is still a science.
I do some ebay internet research \"watch\" which painted items sell the highest, identify \"why\". Is it the paint-job, theme, conversion, what common elements do they all contain.
Things I\'ve learned that sell:
the codex/army book that JUST came out,
Space Marines,
Chaos.
How desirable is the miniature in gaming terms?
Well painted characters make more than squads,
vehicles-don\'t bother.

The desirable elements:
interesting base,
at least one tasteful pool of blood with decapitation preferrably,
skulls,
fire.
Good wargear combination for the model,
new miniatures or at least well converted old ones.

There are always flukes,ebay is a tricky mistress/master.I\'ve seen mediocre painting go for premiums and top notch sell for peanuts(breaks my heart,when I know someone spent a lot of time on it),but overall if you pay attention to the common elements and trends you can keep suprises to a minimum.
 
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halon

New member
painting for sale

I don\'t know what the noise is all about. So somebody got $300 for a figure. They probably spent 30+ hours working on it to get it to the level where some fool would be willing to spend that much on a single figure. But the painter got less than $10 an hour. So here you\'ve got one of the best people in the hobby making McDonalds wages for their work. Boy that\'s something to aspire to. For every person that has gotten $300 for one figure there are 100 who have sold whole painted armies for $300. Sounds like a loosing proposition no matter where you are on the scale.
You want some real finger pointing Look at Dewalds 2nd place finish in the wfb single and then look at his horse in in his first place finish in diorama the year before \"Squire my dragon sword\" . It\'s the same piece with a different rider. Two demons with the same piece.... must be nice. Interesting loophole.
 
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halon

New member
Correction

I said the 2nd place finish of the checked Brettonian steed was by Dewald I was incorrect it\'s by Brian Shaw. I just had a momentary brain f#$t. I ment no slight ot Mr DeWald.
 
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DragonDawn

Guest
Originally posted by halon
I don\'t know what the noise is all about. So somebody got $300 for a figure. They probably spent 30+ hours working on it to get it to the level where some fool would be willing to spend that much on a single figure. But the painter got less than $10 an hour. So here you\'ve got one of the best people in the hobby making McDonalds wages for their work. Boy that\'s something to aspire to. For every person that has gotten $300 for one figure there are 100 who have sold whole painted armies for $300. Sounds like a loosing proposition no matter where you are on the scale.
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Actually, you can make a decent living off of painting, but you have to work very hard at it and really love painting so it doesn\'t turn into a chore. Commissions is where it\'s at, anyways - but you have to get your stuff out on ebay so people can see it. After that, its a matter of making contacts and getting refferals from other painters who are booked at the moment ( and you have to be willing to refer people to others if you are booked). I make more than minimum wage when I\'m up and running at 100% - but am by no means making a killing (and please, don\'t take that the wrong way - I\'m not trying to be like \"Look at me. I\'m so cool\" or whatever). Unfortunately, I have fallen behind the last month or 2 because of family issues :(

Anyways, more to the point of the original topic - you can\'t expect to make more $$ off of your work if you take any kind of shortcut - in the GDs or otherwise. It\'s hard work just like any other job.
 
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Quintio

New member
Just wanted to add a few things to this very interesting discussion.

I primarily enjoy the painting aspect of this hobby, and am probably 90% painter, 10% gamer. GW minis are a nice diversion from more serious armor and WWII scale modeling I do for a hobby as well.

I also find it unbelievable that people enter competitions with work that is not their own. This is not cheating. It is fraud. It is cheating yourself out of the opportunity to know the feeling of accomplishment at having done a spectacular piece of work.

That being said, it takes a certain sense of maturity to recognize the difference between the superficial thrill of winning under fraudulent circumstances and knowing that the artwork you entered is your own. And since so many of these entries are scratchbuilt (sorry, conversions!) they truly are a reflection of the artist behind them. Scale model builders often use kits designed by companies as a base, and this does not discredit them when they build something entirely new and enter them in a competition.

Anyway, point here is that entering someone else\'s work in a competition is juvenile. It misses the point entirely. In fact, personally, I enjoy looking at the work on this site objectively, and hardly rate them myself. I\'m not comfortable when people tell me I should enter GW competitions. For me this is a hobby, something fun, not something for people to judge and critique. I paint for myself, my own enjoyment, and my own sense fo fulfillment, and anyone who does not understand this sense of accomplishment is missing the point.
 
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Dweomer

New member
finger pointing

Originally posted by halon
You want some real finger pointing Look at Dewalds 2nd place finish in the wfb single and then look at his horse in in his first place finish in diorama the year before \"Squire my dragon sword\" . It\'s the same piece with a different rider. Two demons with the same piece.... must be nice. Interesting loophole.
Click to expand...

As pointed out, for one that was Bryan Shaw\'s work.

For second, take a minute to look into what you\'re talking about. I\'ve seen both pieces at two different locations on the same day... and I doubt they were moving the miniatures just to fool me.
 
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Squiggoth

New member
Well, my opinion on this matter that people who enter a GD with other peep\'s mini\'s are truly stupid Squig-brained yokels. On the other hand, there are some exceptions; For example, what if you\'ve spend 3 months painting your Blood Bowl team and a week before Games Day you break your leg? No flying to Birmingham that way, so why not give your entry to a friend and let him enter it (in your name off course)? I don\'t suppose that\'s illegal. Also, buying a mini that\'s already been converted and then converting it even more and painting it truly well isn\'t a crime as such, you\'re still giving a model your own \"trademark\" with the paintjob and the personal conversion work. I don\'t think there can be any kind of strict regulations, as long as a winning \"fraud\" isn\'t recognized as a fraud the cheater can keep his prize. That\'s a shame, but I think most winning frauds will eventually get discovered as being frauds (even here in Holland you can check out GD winners from the US and Oz! :rolleyes:) Just keep your eyes open when you\'ve sold a good painted mini...
 
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halon

New member
For second, take a minute to look into what you\'re talking about. I\'ve seen both pieces at two different locations on the same day... and I doubt they were moving the miniatures just to fool me.


You say you\'ve seen both...well I have no reason to disbelieve you. But they\'re the same horse figure with the same modifications painted in the same way down to and including the base. And while I love the single figure piece and use the picture as my wall paper he still got the award twice for the same paint job even if it is two figures. And while that makes sense for painting a marine squad it doesn\'t really make sense when you\'re painting Brettonian character figures unless the goal is to collect as many trophies as you can with a \"winning\" paint scheme. Should GW give Jen Haley another slayer sword if she paints an exact copy of her excellent Slayer axe piece and puts it in a diorama with a dead goblin....? Seems like kind of a cheap win to me.
 
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cento

New member
Beating the dead horse

And to add on to the whole Victor Hardy thing (nice post CJ!)...

OBVIOUSLY Games Workshop US isn\'t too happy with the fact that someone else\'s conversion is being entered into the Demons either.

One of the rule clarifications coming up this year is that ALL work on the model, painting, sculpting, converting, ANYTHING BEYOND BASIC CLEANING, must be done by the person entering. 100% All of it.

According to Dirty Steve (of GW), this should appear in the March issue of the Dwarf, and may be posted to the website earlier...
 
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Shroud

Guest
\"One of the rule clarifications coming up this year is that ALL work on the model, painting, sculpting, converting, ANYTHING BEYOND BASIC CLEANING, must be done by the person entering. 100% All of it.
\"


Something that I think was always implied and the spirit of the Golden Demons, even though they never (and shouldn\'t have had to) spelled that out literally.
 
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Jericho

Consummate Brushlicker
Yeah, well jackassery overpowers morality most of the time, so I guess the \"spirit of the game\" clause is now officially obselete :D
 
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raginggaijin

New member
I think you are correct on that point. Btw has anything happened to Adam Purdy, the 2nd place Canadian winner with the Bretonnian unit? If I heard correctly he received those minis in a trade.

It is unfortunate that this all occurred. GW now states your work has to be 100% your own, but even if Victor does all of his work he will be suspect. Casts a pallor over his competing in future Demons.

I am however, glad that GW has tightened up the restrictions, (or at least stated it plainly for the rule lawyers out there.) Hopefully next year the Demons won\'t be surrounded by controversy.
 
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hawkwood

New member
tightening restrictions

i agree it is a shame that gw have had to put this kind of thing down on paper as it were. sadly there are always people out there that will do there best to get around rules and unfortunately it is not that uncommon. I have been involved on the admin side with two painting competitions in the first one of the judges recognised a miniature that otherwise would have won as being origionaly painted by someone he knew and in the second i was asked to judge a piece which i had origionaly painted ( and it wouldent have even placed in the top 5 !)

hawk
 
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